Sunday, 13 April 2008

Does the Daemon have a gender?

If so, is it the same as or different than the Eidolon?

I recall some brief discussion of this in the comments to a post or two but I cannot quickly find them. So, can we discuss it here or will someone provide links to the relevant past discussions?

Thank you.

16 comments:

Dreamer said...

Hi Ken:
I posted something about this under the Julian Jaynes blog item on March 28 -- re. the "voices in the head" phenomenon, I noted that my voice, or daemon, is male (whereas I am female), and that men often report female voices.
(I'm not sure if this was the discussion you were thinking of, but maybe.)

ken said...

Dreamer-- That was it. Thank you.

YAS (yet another synchronicity): I was in my locally owned bookstore last week and what did I find but Jaynes' book that was featured in the above mentioned blog entry! Never would have picked it up if not for this group. Haven't started it yet, but ...

I also picked up "The Portable Nietzsche" as I have not read him at all.

See what this group does to me? Makes me buy books on topics I normally wouldn't have. What a terrible influence you all are ;-)

Anyway, what are the thoughts on the gender of the Daemon? Anthony, you mentioned that you've discussed this topic with other Daemonic experiencers. I assume that you think it is the same gender but what are the reasons behind that?

In Jungian terms, I guess I've never really considered the gender of the Self. Since there is some connection with the God-image, I guess I've implicitly thought it neutral. So, if there is a connection between the Daemon and the Self then I'm not sure what I would surmise as the gender.

But Jung also postulates the Anima and Animus which are the major female and male, respectively, archetypes for men and women, respectively. So, I wonder if the voices could at times be them? I'd have to do some research on (or ask Susan Marie) whether Jung talked about the Anima/Animus directly interacting with people. I know that in some cases a dream character of the opposite sex can sometimes be the Anima/Animus.

Anthony Peake said...

Ken: My initial opinion was that the Daemon reflects in all ways the physical and psychological profile of its Eidolon. However I am now of the opinion that there is strong evidence to suggest that the Daemon is either androgynous or possibly even the opposite sex to its Eidolon. This would reflect the 'fictional' writings on the Daemon by Philip Pullman. This revised position is also supported from the emails I have received from members of this blog (and others) who have active daemons, all of whom are the opposite sex to the eidolon in question. I am keen for one or two of them to add their experiences to this interesting area of itladianism (for example it would be great to hear from daemons such as 'Angel', 'Charon', 'Axanamander' and 'Nautilus'.

Anthony Peake said...

Ken: I really like our new itladian acronym YAS. We really are developing our own nomenclature are we not?

I am now in contact with the Julian Jaynes Society - and they are interested in what we are doing here on this blog. I feel that there is considerable synergy between the theories of JJ and ITLAD, indeed, after my lecture in Blackburn last week a member of the audience asked me if I had read any of Jaynes' writings.

Jesamyn said...

Hi .... oh Anthony you have recovered splendidly from your Party!!! no ill-effects whatsoever or you hide them well... I was wondering if you have ever read the works of Ophiel... a little behind the times now (although to an Itladian that means nought!!!)It resides in my strange and assorted bookcase(no,I lie I have moved house and many strange books are cheek by jowl in cardboard boxes!!! anyway!!!The Book in question always fascinated me The Art and Practise of Contacting the Demiurge...in Hindsight this could well be the Daemon....just another candidate in the lead up to all the fascinating things you have brought your disciples to!!!!
Cheers and hope by your next Birthday even more wondrous things are occ.... sorry RE... curring!!!
Jesamyn .

Karl L Le Marcs said...

"Does The Daemon Have A Gender?"

or

"Does The Daemon Have Agenda?"


*smile*

Phonetically the same question but semantically VERY different.

Personally, approaching this from a purely epistemological angle (my empirical angle being obscured by my Virgin Life status) I would expect, in this supersymmetry of existence, that the Daemon-Eidolon inter-gender relationship mirror that of Jung's analtical psychology in the Persona and Anima/Animus (In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; alternatively, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus).

As to the Daemon's agenda, well...........

susan marie said...

I had always assumed that the daemon would have duality of gender, not being limited to one representation as is the eidolon. And of course the Jungian concepts of anima/animus would be contained in this.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

And in comment to Jesamyn's words on Ophiel and contacting the Demiurge (which isn't a subconscious desire to watch films starring Bruce Willis's ex-wife!) it deserves saying that not only has Jesamyn impressed me immeasurably by simply knowing of and having read Ophiel (Edward C. Peach) but our off-blog emails are becoming a fascinating ITLADian discussion group of their own accord.

As we know from previous posts etc the term Demiurge was first used by Plato and later by the Gnostics and the theme runs through most theology.

The ultimate sense seems to be that the original God (or self) is both male and female, which is of course the essential doctrine of the Qabalah; and the thing most difficult to understand about the later debased Old Testament tradition, is that it represents Tetragrammaton as masculine, in spite of the two feminine components.

(Tetragrammaton is the name that the Hebrews gave to their Demiurge who is some kind of Bipolar and tyranical Demi-God (again unrelated to Ms Moore); a presumptuous slave driver with a sadistic tendency to tempt and deceive mankind. The Gnostics saw him as their mortal enemy.)

The letter Yod is the first letter of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), and this symbolizes the father, who is Wisdom; he is the highest form of Mercury, and the logos, the creator of all worlds.

The letter He is the second letter of the Tetragrammaton, and this symbolizes the mother, who is Understanding; the Universe is here resolved into its ultimate elements.

The letter Vau is the third letter of the Tetragrammaton, and this symbolizes the son, who is the personification of Beauty; an interpretation of the father in terms of the mind.

The letter He serves double duty, and so it is too, the fourth letter of the Tetragrammaton. This symbolizes the daughter, who is the Kingdom; the Universe as manifested to our physical senses.

Yet further references to the duality of gender consciousness!

ken said...

Thank you all. All very good food for thought, grist for the mill, fiber for the bowel, etc., etc., etc.

Jesamyn said...

Thanks for the compliments Karl!!! After laughing at your Demi comments, I felt the very Earth beginning to tremble..... is it not said that uttering Tettragrammaton correctly will rend the whole world asunder??(not by playing Tetris-my weak attempt to match your humour!!)
Aaah but of course you have not said it ALL in the correct manner.... you are way too wise for that!! Thank you for more fascinating information,and dear Ken, I am not sure about your bowel......
*extracts delicate lace handkerchief from handbag*
Only kidding!! :)
Karl I thank you for your advice and will reply,after meditating on it!!!
Cheers and Thanks to all in this fascinating Family....
Jesamyn.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Hee Hee!

Jesamyn, my Antipdoean Angel, I'm alright at dishing out the compliments, it's just taking them that my ludicrously tiny ego can't take!

And yes indeed, it is said that, by uttering the word of power correctly it will give you domain over all, but considering Hebrew has no vowel sounds no-one is actually sure how to pronounce it.
*thankfully*

And if my advice to you is in anyway useful then I am, as ever, your humble friend.

Aloha Gary said...

*heads in goal nicely tee'd up*

Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! in Brianesque voice
*awaits stoning which doesn't come, phew*

...and back to the agenda...*groans*

so how does this relate to the indigenous wisdom approach which says that we are all 50:50 male and female?

Kane (male) is form
Wahine (female) is energy

In Hawaiian teachings: Kane is as if dead in the Kingdom of Po without the kisses of Wahine.

In other words: nothing happens without energy, or: men will happily sit sipping beer having fun until woman comes and motivates him to build and maintain house for her! ;-)

I understand that Taoist teachings on Yin-Yang are similar?

The Hawaiian model has 3 key elements so nearest equivalent to Daemon is Aumakua (Higher Self) who is both male and female and neither. Usually translated as guardian 'parent' rather than 'father' as (mis)translated in KJ bible.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Gary; Yep, I'll set 'em up and you can knock 'em down.
Now no-one, is to stone anyone, until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?
*giggle*
And thanks for picking up on my "Agenda" pun, as no-one else appears to have!!!
*tut!*
I won't comment on the Hawaiian stuff as I think we've covered that elsewhere!
"Making it worse?! How could it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!"
*ah! the Life of Brian*

Jesamyn said...

Karl..... Susan Marie and myself picked up your agenda pun immediately... but cannot prove it...as we commented privately...!!
Always Look on the Itlad side of Life!!!
Respectfully as ever
Jesamyn.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn!!!
Have you two been talking about me again?
*whistles "Do do, do do, do do, do do*

Seraph said...

I am quite decidely male.

Dmitri.