Monday, 28 April 2008

Flatliners



The Burly of Hurly variety is back from the Dam of Amster and shockingly has a new post...about a film! Anthony it suddenly occured to me whilst re-watching this film last night that i don't think we have ever mentioned this one to each other while discussing films that have an ITLADian theme. Near death (or pretty much actual death) experiences are so central to your theory so i thought i'd get your opinion on this film, or if you havn't seen it, suggest very strongly that you do so.

The movie, if you havn't seen it, is about as group of medical students that try to control and create temporary death of a few minutes in order to experience exactly what is on the other side. What they experience is extremely haunting but very relevant to your theory as it has links with the life review (playback).

Super Bonus Question!!!!

You've argued that we can make subtle changes based on mutliple world possibilities and intervention from the Daemon but do you think these changes are provoked by morality? Maybe i'm being presumptious to assume you don't quite believe in the judgemental concept of heaven and hell (I hope not) but surely any changes we are encouraged to make are either for the sake of morality or our own self benefit / happiness?

17 comments:

Anthony Peake said...

HB: I remember going to see Flatliners when it was first released. I found the movie and its implications really fascinating. I agree that when we next meet we should have an evening just discussing Itladian movies. Indeed I have just remembered that a film with a very similar theme is "Brainstorm" with Natalie Wood and Christopher Walken.

Your "Super Bonus Question" is a good one sir. Indeed this topic indirectly came up in the Q&A session after my ISHVAL talk yesterday. I suppose I can answer it with another movie analogy. This time we are back to "Groundhog Day". In my opinion a similar 'moralistic' process is taking place in both that movie and CTF. In the movie Conners has the opportunity, over many Day re-runs to do good for doing good's sake. Initially he uses his knowledge (which is the same as the knowledge the Daemon has in CTF) of what will happen during the day for personal, and selfish gain. However as he lives the day over and over again he does good for no personal gain. In this way he evolves as a human being. Then, at some stage when his development is complete he is 'allowed' to move on to the next day. I would like to believe that that is the function of CTF. We live our lives over and over again and each time daemonic 'nudges' move us along slighly different paths. These nudges make us subliminally aware of the hurt our actions do to others and, if we are developing in a moral way, we chose to not do those actions, or actively decide on other actions that help others. After many life re-runs we to, like Conners, live the 'perfect life' and in doing so our Eidolon and daemon meld into a unitary being that is 'allowed' to move onto to whatever lies beyond real death - Samsara, Nirvana, Heaven, Reincarnation or any other world of 'spirit'. And of course all these 'lives' take place in the final second of our virgin life so to an observer in their time-line we simply die as people have always been observed to die.

The million dollor question is, who does the 'judging' to decide that the dying person is ready to move on?

Is that the real truth behind the theological concept of "The Last Judgement"?

We have moved from science, to philosophy to theology which, by its very nature is speculative. But speculation is just as valid as experimentation in my mind.

Dreamer said...

I like to think that we do the judging ourselves -- or at least that some aspect of ourselves does the judging (maybe our higher self, or our Daemon?) Thus it's not so much a question of being "good enough" as of eliminating our guilt.

Anthony Peake said...

DREAMER: I totally agree. It has to be an "inner thing" in order to be in any way effective. I think of the wrongs I have done others in my life. Those others may forgive me for what I have done but in order to move on I must forgive myself.

Hurlyburly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hurlyburly said...

Also, with regards to why it is that some people have Near death expiriences and others don't, the argument that these do not begin unless it seems the person seems likely to die is a bit problematic to me.

Super brainstorm

What is the correlation between those that seem to be experiencing a virgin life also ever having a NDE? If the Daemon goes into unfamiliar territory and a new path is taken then maybe this is why a false life review would be started in a NDE when it is unknown that the person will infact be brought back before death takes place??

I was dead for 4 minutes and don't remember anything, coming back with no oxygen to your brain though... not a nice experience at all, trying to speak and not being able to is quite fricking scary!

susan marie said...

HB: Your post raises essential questions. I do believe in the "morality" and "judgment", but again, as an inward mechanism that is personal and subjective while at the same time somehow having a touchstone in objective standards. But I think the "judgments" would be far more complex than those of traditional ethics or religious tenets. William James speaks of bifurcations having to meet the criterion of being imposed, rather than arbitrarily chosen; momentous rather than trivial; having some touchstone in profound subjective experience, etc. And that sort of "morality" is based on freedom and inwardness, and such morality I do indeed endorse! BUT YOUNG HURLY: So glad you have arrived back to us safely; I had envisioned you in all sorts of trouble and danger. I went to your profile and no e-mail address, boy. I wanted to talk Eminem and Hurlyburly. Please email me at kovalinsky03@gmail.com so that you will be added to my contacts. If you want to, that is.SMK

ra from ca said...

HB

I did not know that you had this experience of being dead 4 minutes. Do you feel this experience changed you and your outlook on life? I imagine this experience brought you to Anthony's work?

If the daemon has been around for many lifetimes it must have a deeper understanding of the consequences of each choice we make and the full range of options we have. It knows that we should be careful what we wish for and what will bring us the most satisfaction and earn us the most respect in the end. It knows we create our own heaven and hell every day.

Hurlyburly said...

I had an asthma attack and was gone for about 4-5 minutes, they said another minute or two and that would have been that. I didn't remember anything while i was out except returning rather suddenly and rather painfuly.

I'd love to say it had a big impact or change on my life but it didn't. I felt fragile and lucky for about a week and then life creeps back in and things go back to normal including perspective.

This is necessary in life and is much of a good thing as it is a bad in my opinion. On the way to the hospital though i did think that was that. I got my friend to rush me there as i suddenly couldn't breathe at all, last thing i remember is telling her to go through a red light!!!

This was when i was 22, i'm now 27.

Robin said...

A slant on the "morality, judgment" question:

If consciousness is a wave-function and wave-functions have frequencies. Life re-runs are something like turning a dial on a radio in search of the correct station (frequency). Once we find the frequency that matches or at least harmonizes with that of "what ever lies beyond real death" we become part of the harmonic "om". There is no need for judgment. Interference simply stops and the energies merge into one. Let's call it the ultimate "Good Vibration".

Just off a 12 hour shift.... Time for a nap....zzzzzzzzz

ra from ca said...

HB

It is hard to live every minute of our life feeling lucky but I suspect that experience stayed with you in that you are tuned into stuff you wouldn't otherwise be tuned into.

Robin

Would that harmony be heavenly? Sweet dreams......

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;
Initially my apologies, I have been a tad hectic for the last few days and have not been able to spend any time on the blog since Saturday so, Hiya !!!!!

Now, I believe I have seen this film !!
*rushes around administering smelling salts to all those who have fainted*

BUT, to your Super Bonus Question, erm, Morality is subjective isn't it? I mean what one person understands as moralistic may not be echoed in an associate (just look at us two !!!)
*smile*

So I agree more with your later statement than the former in that the Daemonic Guidance in recurrent lives is driven by as sense of bettering oneself, whether one believes in the Eternal Returns or a Finite set of returns (as I do, employing Cantor's infinities and the non-eternal subdivision of time; being itself space-time and therefore indivisible further than Planck Constant or Planck Time), ultimately the direction is surely to achieve a Nirvana type state of oneness.

Good question though mate, one wonders what you imbibed in Amsterdam to create such an inquisitive philosophical approach in you?????

*ahem*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
FANTASTIC to see you employing my "Collapsing the Consciousness Wave Theory" to this question, and astutely done as well.
*impressed*

Robin said...

I have impressed the great Le Marcs?? I gush with pride! Maybe my infantile scientific mind is broadening!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
*blushes*

Thank You, but I assure you there is nothing "great" about me.

And hush now Robin, you have a tremendous mind and collectively we can all broaden our horizons.

"All Five Horizons,
Revolved around her soul;
As the earth to the sun.
Now the air I tasted and breathed,
Has taken a turn...........
And all I taught her was,
Everything!
"
- Pearl Jam "Black"

Now, lets drag ourselves back to our Dear Boy Martin's original topic of Flatliners!

Robin said...

Please believe me folks, I am not prone to exaggeration! And I mean this sincerely. At the end of my 10 minute commute home this morning, as I pulled into my drive, the song "Black" by Pearl Jam (acoustic version) had just finished playing. I was listening to a CD which holds over 200 mp3 files and this song ended my journey home. And now to find Karl's post! I said it once and I'll say it again...I love that word. Synchrondipity!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;

BLIMEY !!!

roshni said...

hurly burly:have u heard of the word amoral? situations, events and actions that cannot be judged?