Monday, 21 April 2008

Don’t Forget To Take Your Memory Pill !

In haunting echoes of the film ‘Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind’, Scientists may have now developed a way to dampen, block or even delete unwanted memories from our brains.

In a study, revealed in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, psychiatrists at McGill University, in Montreal, and Harvard University, in Boston, used an amnesia drug (Propranolol) to ease the memories of trauma victims.

Researchers found they can use drugs to wipe away single, specific memories while leaving other memories intact. By injecting the drug at the right time, when a subject was recalling a particular thought, Neuroscientists discovered they could disrupt the way the memory is stored and even make it disappear.

Professor Karim Nader, of McGill University, said: "When you remember old memories they can become 'unstored' and then have to be 'restored’. As the memory is getting restored, we gave patients a drug that turns down the emotional part of the memory. It left the conscious part of the memory intact, so they could still remember all the details but without being overwhelmed by the memory."

This research was also recently discussed during an episode of the BBC’s “Horizon” series last month here in the UK entitled “How Does Your Memory Work?”

The program reported how Genevieve Smith-Courtois is taking medicine to “dampen” the memory of a sexual assault she suffered nine years ago. The pill she swallows looks like a beta blocker but has a side-effect of blocking not just adrenalin but also recall. After six weeks, when recollecting the assault under laboratory conditions, her symptoms had decreased by a third to below the post traumatic stress disorder threshold.

A question was put to Professor Alain Brunet, the clinical psychologist behind the research:
What if a pill could be found to wipe out a bad memory altogether?
Professor Brunet's reply strikes me as deeply ITLADic in content and philosophy:
Our identities are based on our memories and there needs to be continuity in time between who we are and what experiences we have had. We are our memories.

In the seminally ITLADic film The Matrix, Morpheus offers Neo a choice of two coloured pills, The red pill will answer the question "What is the Matrix?" and the blue pill will simply allow for life to carry on as before.
Morpheus (to Neo): "This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

Tony’s magnificent book, as he suggests in his lecture, is the literary equivalent of the red pill.
I don’t know what colour Propronalol is but I’m guessing, given what is suggested it does, that it should be absolutely clear !
(or somewhat cloudy)

*smile*

So, QUESTION: (amended to TWO questions after discussions in the comments section)

Question 1: Would you take a pill to suppress a memory ?????

Question 2: Would you take the "CTF" Pill ?????
...............(explained in comments section)

A Dark Philosopher
Karl L Le Marcs

53 comments:

Karl L Le Marcs said...

My answer would be NO, I wouldn't take a pill to suppress my memory, but there is a similar question asked by Psychiatrists to those who live with Bipolar Depression (as I do).

They ask us: If you had an imaginary button in front of you that, should you press it, would remove all aspects of the illness from you, would you press it?

And apparently over 90% wouldn't press it; and neither would I!!!!!

Interesting to see what everyone answers to the memory pill question.

susan marie said...

KARL: What a fine post, and how interesting and full of philosophical content regarding identity. I will say this, for myself alone: There is much in my chemical makeup, and in my personal history, which could well be called "ill" and extremely traumatic. Yet if anything could be altered; if I could be made stable and healthy, and all trauma's effects eradicated, I would flee. I agree with Professor Brunet's conception of identity; I adhere to the Kierkegaardian self, I hold to Nietzsche's "amor fati"("not to will anything differently, backward or forward"); and I believe in the words of the poet Holderlin when he says, "and where the danger is, lies also the fostering power"--i.e., in our afflictions lie also the saving strength. Also the poet Menashe, who claims, "there is no Jerusalem but this, like David we must bless ourselves with all our might, and never forget the words of the prophets and of Blake." In other words, this subject of identity resonates roundly with me. One more quote strikes me; when I was studying medieval philosophy with my mentor Dominic Braune, he told of a medieval saying (of Abelard? I am not certain. . . ) which ran, "And all will be well with you; and all manner of things shall be well." And that is, not that pain and affliction and trauma would be absent, but that all would be used, incorporated, inherited, transfigured, and redeemed. All belongs to the range of life, to be understood and enjoyed (and I do not speak glibly about "enjoying" trauma--indeed, it can be so. . . ) all of this is off the cuff, have not pondered but wrote swiftly upon reading the post. Please forgive the disorganization and randomness of my words. . .

Jesamyn said...

Oh what a question for me to think on so early but I feel I have to give an honest answer,given that you are doing serious research here. And I am unbiased by other answers so here goes for good or not good....
My first answer was to have been NO!!! We are somehow meant to suffer somewhat and live and work through Life's vicissitudes etc, but then I remembered....
The years I was trapped in afore-mentioned awful marriage, I went to all lengths to forget, going to Medical Centres shaking bruised and terrified, I took anti depressants and tranquillisers etc(although only rarely ,admittedly) but seeing no escape from my situation was the main problem.. having to face it each night ... and had I been offered anything illegal I think I would have taken it..sorry to say it.
But no, the memory pill I would not, because now the memories are faded and although I still cannot see what relevance this time in my life has to my whole Pattern of Existence, at the very least it makes me appreciate tenfold beeing free and able to live without fear any more. I have no idea if this makes any sense but any of us can only see things from our own narrowest perception.It somehow seems more pure and noble to suffer,just as it always seems more noble to starve when extremely unhappy than to over eat..we give more sympathy to the one wasting away than to the overweight one although it does not prove who is the better person... but I do not now now if it serves a purpose (suffering)I will be VERY interested in all answers...Respectfully as Ever
Jesamyn

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie;
Far from requiring any forgiveness, the "randomness" of your words are like a tidal wave of thought-energies that I, for one, would queue to ride like an excited child at a fun-fair.

Thank you for your comments, I thought the concept would be an interesting one for the blog, and you seem to have the same opinion as I regarding not 'pressing the button' to remove all Mental Illness issues but, Dear Lady, you have skillfully (and yet not unnoticeably), dodged the main question:

Would you take a pill to suppress a memory ?

Robin said...

No pill for me! We are the sum of our experiences, good and bad.

Unfortunately the medical field seems to think there is a pill for everything. Propranolol is frequently used to treat migraine headaches. The few people I know who take it (all women) seem to have a flat affect. Perhaps it acts as a chemical lobotomy?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn,
Hee! Hee! I do seem to like waking you with a cerebral conundrum don't I?

Thank you so much for such a personal and beautiful answer, I'm sure everyone will feel deep sentiment in your words.

Isn't it interesting how the dark recesses of people's minds works?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
Hi there, thank you for your response.

Ah! The dear sweet benevolent pharmaceutical companies eh??
*sarcasm*

And thanks for the inside knowledge on how it's being prescribed. I knew it was given to treat hypertension but not migraine also!!
*Hmmmmm*

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy!

We seem to be forming a trend of pill avoiders, any one agree or disagree?????

Hurlyburly said...

It depends on how convincing these clever symptom-naming-people are

Cue the advert from the pharmaceutical company

"Do you wake up in the morning and go to bed at night? If so...."

susan marie said...

Karl; It just came to mind, also: Peter Kramer's book, published here in the '90s, and which caused quite a stir with the New York Times, which ridiculed Kramer to no end: "Listening to Prozac"--about the capacity of prozac and similar drugs to cause chemical changes and elevate mood (seratonin )--what a philosophical debate was launched in the Universities here over just this conception of identity and continuity of memory! I even presented a paper on it in the '90s. I am so disjointed as I am serving dinner to guests yet trying to post a bit here and there. again, sorry for sloppy content.SMK

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;

Eh? *scratches head*

Address the question Mozza:

Would you take a pill to suppress a memory ?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie;
Ah yes I have a vague recollection of that myself (obviously the CIA were not using full strength memory loss pills on me at the time!!!)

Take your time, Dear Lady, enjoy your dinner with your guests, and then come back and..........
ANSWER THE QUESTION!!
*smile*

Hurlyburly said...

Oh i see, when Chris Rock says it it's funny, when i use the exact same quote to mock the same people (pharmaceutical companies) you suddenly have no idea what i'm talking about!

I personally wouldn't but what's the harm in doing it for trauma victims that need to move on with their life? We supress horrific memories anyway and they then manifest themselves in a plethora of life destroying ways so if you're going to bury it, might aswell got the whole 9 and obliterate the frickers...

Pain is love, suffering is growth, but some people suffer ordeals that will scar them for life, surely they should be allowed to make that choice if it's now available to them?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;
Chris, erm, Rock you say?
*shakes head*
Hee! Hee!
Not heard that specific routine Mozza, but I'll go find it.

I agree with your question, but I can only presume that others, would empathise with Jesamyn's words:
"But no, the memory pill I would not, because now the memories are faded and although I still cannot see what relevance this time in my life has to my whole Pattern of Existence, at the very least it makes me appreciate tenfold beeing free and able to live without fear any more."

Whether the answer depends on how fresh the pain of the memory is, maybe that would have a determing factor on the yes or no answer given???

susan marie said...

BUT I DID ANSWER THE QUESTION, in my first remarks, and at length--sol! No, no, 3x no!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie;
Thank you for clearing that up, I thought your initial "no" was in your 'fleeing' the possible repairs to your 'ill' states, like me and my Bipolar Depression, I wouldn't press the button to lose the illness as I would lose all of my hypergraphia and my extraordinary mind that operates faster than I can keep up - but that won't shut up sometimes !!!!
*smile*

So thank you for your answer, any ambiguity is certainly dispersed now.

And I suspected such as answer from my Dear Lady.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

THE CHEATING THE FERRYMAN AND SMASHING HIM OVER THE HEAD WITH A PADDLE QUESTION:

Never mind simply taking a drink from the River Lethe to cleanse the mind of all that has gone before, BUT if there was a "CTF pill", a pill that would give you full cognisance of The Daemon with you and in direct communication with you from the moment of your birth (or rebirthed reccurence) would you swallow that pill? (not washed down with the River Lethe water obviously as you'd just be there all day in a comedic chain of forgetting and remembering and Charon would start getting a bit cheesed off with the backlog of boats all honking at him and sometimes it's just not worth the stress is it)!!!!
*looks confused*

Would you take the CTF pill????

susan marie said...

Yes. YES; indeed, I would.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie;
Interesting, I'm not sure I would take the CTF pill (but being a Virgin Lifer or one who has already been Daemonically Guided away from my previous timeline and am therefore on my Virgin Recording I have no subjective feelings of having my Daemon there anyway, so I would possibly not take that pill either)

Darn! These Pharmaceutical swines must be good! I'm declining taking two metaphorical tablets on principal and here I am with bags of drugs kindly prescribed by the NOT altruistic and in no way private-financely funded chemical industry.

*harrumph*

Dreamer said...

I wouldn't take the memory-suppressing pill, mainly because I'd worry about what other effects it might have in the process of erasing a specific memory.

However, I'd definitely take a CTF pill. To me, our inability to remember past lives, dreams, who we are, what we're supposed to be doing here, etc., is a cruel and terrible affliction. To put it in Gnostic terms, our forgetting is a curse inflicted on us by an evil demi-urge. And from a Buddhist perspective, the whole point of our lives is to "wake up." (When the Buddha became enlightened, he remembered all his past lives.)

So the way I see it, a pill that could give me access to the wisdom of my Daemon and help me to see reality for what it truly is would be the best thing that could ever happen.

On the other hand, it's been said that it's important that we wake up slowly -- if we suddenly became aware of everything at once, it would come as a terrible shock. However, I'm assuming that taking a CTF pill, given that it would enable communication with my Daemon, would be far superior to, say, taking LSD, or DMT, or other mind-altering drugs. The confusion inherent in "going it alone" via psychedelic drugs would be alleviated. I'd have to hope and trust that my Daemon would take care of me.

susan marie said...

Dreamer; What a lovely way of putting it all! Very nice remarks. In particular, the last thoughts, and the last sentence.

Robin said...

I'd like to try the CTF pill. I'd nibble just a corner at first. As Dreamer implied, waking up slowly would be preferable to a sudden jolt of awareness.

Even with the re-wording of the question, no... I don't want to supress any memories. The memories of life events have a way of fading with time. *nods to Jesamyn*

The emotion of each event is a stepping stone in the development of our psyche.

`That's the effect of living backwards,' the Queen said kindly:

`it always makes one a little giddy at first --

`Living backwards!' Alice repeated in great astonishment. `I never heard of such a thing!'

` -- but there's one great advantage in it, that one's memory works both ways.'

`I'm sure MINE only works one way.' Alice remarked. `I can't remember things before they happen.'

`It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked.

Anthony Peake said...

As those of you who have seen my lectures know, I have a powerpoint slide that discusses Morpheus' discussion with Neo about the Blue and Red pills. I suggest that my book is a red pill.

Now, in response to Karl's question:

1. Memory Pill - Initially my reaction was yes - specifically for a particular part of my life. But on reflection I realised that it was this specific event that brought about the chain of events that brought ITLAD and CTF into being. If I had not done what I did (and subsequently remembered and relived in my mind over and over again) I would have not become subsequently pre-occupied with a circumstance whereby I could put right the wrong I did, and the hurt I brought about in another human being who deserved much better. It was from this seed that the huge forest that has become my books, this blog, my talks and everything else came about. Also, on an additional reflection, I consider all my life to have been a learning experience. Take away one part and I am a different person.

2. CTF Pill - If I take this pill I will become a unified being. As such I will know exactly what to do and what not to do in my life. However (and Karl and I have discussed this a few times)the minute this happens I will make decisions that will bring about a change in my Bohmian Imax. I (we?) will avoid the first 'wrong' turn and go off in a different route. As soon as this happens my life-route has been changed forever. As such I think that an effective CTF pill would be impossible.

Do you agree?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Tony;
Fantastic reply Tony, as one would expect, and interesting to see how much agreement there seems to be within ITLADians around my question regarding the Memory Pill.

And the CTF Pill???? Now, you've raised an intriguing point here; it's the old Philosophical hypothesis of "What happens when an 'Immovable Object' meets an 'Unstoppable Force'?"

As in such hypothesis, the answer lies in the impossibility of the question: Should either one exist, then by definition, the other can not.

Perhaps my CTF Pill question should be amended slightly in the definition of what said pill would do as you are right to say that if one takes the CTF Pill and has immediate open awareness and dialogue with The Daemon then ones life path would immediately (or as near as dammit) bifurcate from your previous life review and embark on a Virgin Recording thereby losing The Daemon instantly as it will have no cognisance of the future any more because the Eidolon's future is a new track being laid down.

This reminds me of our chats on this issue (as you allude to in your reply), and the implications of one becoming aware of the existance of The Daemon whilst living a Virgin Life or Virgin Recording element of our existence (as I assert I have done through your book and my own Dark Philosophy), so I wonder if we should redefine what the CTF Pill does, to mean it instantly brings cognisance of The Daemon to the taker and opens dialogue with such providing that a) The Virgin Life has already been lived to completion and b) On current recurrence the Daemon has not already nudged the Eidolon away from past life review and into a Virgin Recording scenario.

HOWEVER, then, once the CTF Pill is taken, KNOWLEDGE of the existence of The Daemon in other minds still exists in your own.

In many ways, this draws huge comparisons then, between the effects of a hypothetical CTF Pill and the life changing effects of reading Tony's book, ITLAD.

The hypothetical taking of one against the literal reading of the other having philosophically strikingly similar symptoms.

However, this new definition of what the CTF Pill would do, interestingly, changes my thoughts on my own answer. As I am someone who, I assert, is either living their Virgin Life or is on a Virgin Recording of a recurrence, I probably would now take the CTF Pill because if this gave me communication with The Daemon it then at least could tell me if a) it has any cognisance of who I am (Virgin Life argument thusly addressed) or b) it has already assisted me in this current recurrence (Virgin Recording argument thusly addressed).

I need a headache pill!!!!!!!!!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

But then again, a Virgin Lifer would have NO Daemon to bring into such awareness should they take the CTF Pill in the first instance; but I suppose at least that would, in itself, answer its own questions !!!
BLIMEY !!

Hurlyburly said...

Children sit down.

Martin is going to school you all now.

Asking this question is simply another way of asking if it is natural to do unatural things. The moral implications of certin "unnatural" processes bother people because we are interfering with nature.

But peep this peeps....

If we have developed into a society that does this type of procedure and we then decide to do it, guess what? That's nature, we have evolved in a certain way wether it is desireable or not, so there must be a reason. Anything that happens in life is natural.

"Oh that's man interfeing with nature..."

Actually no it's not. Nature created man, what man creates is part of nature wether it's a discourse or not. If we choose not to take that particular pill, that was meant to be, but in the other hand...

See where i'm going with this?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Dreamer;
Surprising isn't it how much consensus ITLADians seem to have on the Memory Pill question.
*ponders*

Side-stepping my recurring Demi-urge gag for once I agree with your thoughts that the CTF Pill would be a "wake-up" pill, and speaking as one for whom sleeping pills are woefully ineffectual, such a concept is paradoxically very interesting.

And I wouldn't like to even contemplate the ramifications of such as a CTF pill within the Pharmaceutical industry!!
*giggles and shudders simultaneously*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
Excellent point regarding Time being a natural healer, I completely agree, although whilst within that Time one does often wish for either some respite or an accelerant of sorts.

And thanks for the Carroll quote, sometimes I find myself forgetting how powerful it is.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;
"See where i'm going with this?"
Short answer, No !!
*smile*
And as ever, one does not feel akin to being 'schooled' by the Burly one but more in the company of uniqueness of thought-forms much reminiscent of those often muttered by the over ale-induced or that bloke in the precinct reading aloud from Winnie The Pooh!
*giggle*
(This is just Martin and I's usual banter everyone!)

Where did the 'morality of doing 'unatural' things' argument come into this? Surely everything is an 'unatural' thing until it is done, when it immediately hence becomes, in itself, natural (in the philosophical sense of the word, not the semantic one, obviously).

In a similar vein I suppose we could ask the very old question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Well, obviously the chicken as the creature evolved over millions of years before natural selection introduced the concept of the egg into the reproductive procedure for the creature and it has kinda stuck!!!

Hurlyburly said...

Imagine my surprise that you not only disagree with me but can't see my point... it's getting old now!

Here's why...

People have argued that you must live through the bad things in life to get to the good, yes? So therefor taken a short cut or detour and eliminating the bad is unnatural or wrong in some way. It goes against the principle of what makes us human.

What i'm (not clearly enough) saying, is that if we decide that is the course for us, the taboo would probably wear off quite quickly as something that seemed quite horrific would become accepted and natural or normal.

Seriously, how can you not not recoginse a question of morality and nature within this pondering?

Clearly i'm not schooling you, my language was to living things up not patronise...

patronise is when you talk do....


oh i can't even be bothered!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;
Sir, if one continues to do things a certain way then the results they achieve will only be the same as those previously received!

"Don't you threaten me with a dead fish!"
*giggles*

Right, er, I see a tad clearer your thought-pattern now (*shudders*), er, must stop er-ing, although to err is human!
*groans and onslaught of rotten cabbages*

You said initially that you wouldn't take the Memory Pill Martin, but you've not answered the CTF Pill question, which will be an interesting one to hear your answer to consdiering you have been very keen to devour the red pill of ITLAD??????

Hurlyburly said...

By the way, i do work. I am doing other things while trying to give you such insightful answers!

Give me a bit and i'll answer question 2. I need time to think of an answer that you will definately disagree with!!!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

HurlyBurly;
I don't think you do.
*irony*

Robin said...

Lithium, don't want to lock me up inside.

Lithium, don't want to forget how it feels without...

Lithium, I want to stay in love with my sorrow...


"Lithium"
from the album "The Open Door"
by Evanescence

susan marie said...

Whispered to Hurlyburly: I have been in your position many, many times. One of the most frustrating feelings in all the world.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
OH MY GOD; OH MY GOD; OH MY GOD
I once wrote an entire short story based completely around the lyrics to that very song.

You've just made a different Pseudonym of mine sit up and take massive notice !!!!

"All of this time I can't believe I couldn't see,
Kept in the dark, but you were there in front of me.
I’ve been sleeping a thousand years it seems.
Got to open my eyes to everything.
Without a thought, without a voice, without a soul
Don't let me die here,
There must be something more.
Bring Me To Life!

(Wake me up)
Wake me up inside
(I can’t wake up)
Wake me up inside
(Save me)
Call my name and save me from the dark


Evanescence - Bring Me To Life

(Dedicated to Efren Beaumont and to dear, dear, dear sweet Kaitlyn)

Robin said...

*big smile*
Amy Lee, one of my all time favorite singer/song writers. I never miss their show when they come to town!

How happy I am to find a fellow fan!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Robin;
While Eddie Vedder and James Maynard Keenan can happily battle it out in my eyes as best male vocalist, Amy Lee stands miles above any other female for sheer class, power and sensitivity.

I literally cry when I hear her sing "You" from the "Not For Your Ears" un-official release.
(if you've not heard it, email me and I'll send it to you)

Wonderful linkage of "Lithium" to the topic of this post Robin.

ra from ca said...

"Peep this peeps" (love it Martin)
Better late than never I offer my vote

1. Memory pill

A memory of physical violence might have little value and if you could feasibly dampen it, there is an argument for it. Although drugs always have side effects and who knows what this one would have.

In my case the painful memory is not so much physical but a severe blow to my sense of self, identity ego, the very core of who I thought I was. I am inclined to go along with Buddhist thinking that this pain is meant awaken me to something beyond my previous limited thinking. When I first suffered my son's loss I said to a friend I hope to get Alzheimer's because I can't live with the memories. He said you don't want that and somehow I knew he was right. I am learning to live (slowly) with thoughts of the past without medicating myself with alcohol and I have noticed that the present is now more vibrant and the vast mystery of life more apparent.
2. CTF Pill
Unlike you Karl, I have been aware of the daemon voice, but fought it, and dismissed it.

Anthony:

I have serious doubts that the daemon will ever provide you with a perfect ego-based life. It's like believing in the perfect mate. There's no such thing. You trade in one, for another and you find a new set of problems. We always work towards some notion of perfection and you find out ultimately there is no such thing.

susan marie said...

Ra; What wonderful remarks, and I am in full agreement, and very appreciative. Know exactly whereof you speak.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Ra from Ca;
Ruth, in your case, late is always better than never.

1. Beautiful comments on the Memory Pill question, and again echoing many of the ITLAD community's thoughts, it's interesting isn't it?

2. And on the CTF Pill, I suppose then that you would have no need for it having previously dismissed the voices.

And I think the point AP was making was not one of a perfect-ego based life, but a perfect momemt of clarity where if one took the CTF Pill one would immediately attain communciation with the Daemon and at the very next event on the life path if Daemonically Guided away from the last life review, one would begin a new path, a Virgin Recording, and would then lose the Daemon immediately as one found it as the future would be as blind to the Daemon as it is to the Eidolon.

ra from ca said...

Got your point Karl about the perfect moment of clarity Karl, and it makes sense.

Thanks for your kind comments.

johar said...

Hi Karl,

Thanks for yet another thought provoking post. I see it's tanking along nicely and will probably turn out to be another monumental post.

Ok, NO to the memory pill - it doesn't remove the memory only the emotional attachment to the memory. If the memory is still there and I couldn't experience the emotional reaction it would fester. From personal family experience I have seen what a suppressed memory can do to the psyche and despite the trauma of allowing that memory to come out, the freedom afterwards was worth it. I believe you don't know who you are until you are tested.
The CTF is a real thinker for me. I wonder if we give it enough time evolution will provide the natural answer to the CTF pill. Eventually new humans will be born, at one with their duality, higher beings, the next evolutionary step? Would this allow us to time travel, communicate telepathically, find balance, harmony and fundamental connection with the universe. Would it eventually lead to us all experiencing each other subjectively, inhabiting a global phaneron of consciousness?

Thought written as they occur, sorry if it's a bit Star Trek!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar;
Thanks JoJo, another "No" to the Memory Pill eh, will nobody take it? Or is that just the way us ITLADians think?

And the CTF Pill, ah! Good comments and nicely segued into my last post and new theory on consciousness.
*slips tenner into JoJo's handbag*

Tony's Book is the Magick in Theory, whereas the CTF Pill would be the Magick in Practice and as those of us who know these things may tell you, the answers often lie within Magick In Theory And Practice.
*nod to Crowley*

Jaysi said...

Probably a bit late now, but here is my response to the two questions

Regarding the first question; to me it really depends on what I believe in terms of this life. If I believed that it was all a game of chance, I would certainly take the pill, but if I believed that there was a purpose for which everything happens, I wouldn't take it. Since I do think there is a purpose, though I don't know what it is, I would therefore not take it. Having said that however, I must soften this by saying that I don't think I would take it. But if some terrible thing happened to me, I don't know if I would be able to be all philosophical and say that this is part of my purpose. The mind is very powerful, and I may find a way to justify taking it as a result of finding the pain unbearable. On the other hand, there may be other ways of removing the pain, without the extreme event of actually removing a memory, via such things as hypnosis, mediation and yoga. (Here's a link to a surgery done under hypnosis http://www.news-medical.net/?id=37534 )

A question that comes to my mind is this: If these drugs can actually remove memories, are the memories regained at the ITLADian moment of "life passing before the eyes" at the moment of death?

Regarding the second question, Dreamer mentioned that it has been said that if we wake up, we should do it slowly. I would add that we also perhaps should do it by ourselves, so that one, we would truly understand what is happening to us, and two, we would appreciate what we have received. So no, I don't think I would take the second pill.

Don't know if anyone will read this, but it was great to read through all the posts and think about this topic.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jaysi;
Hi, thanks for your comments, and you can always rely on me to read anything anyone takes the time to post. I even read HurlyBurly's stuff!!!
BLIMEY!
I agree with you re the Memory Pill, as seemingly all ITLADians do, and your comments on pain are interesting too. The brain of course, feels no pain itself, and we only experience pain when our brain tells us to. If this pain in emotional form can also be anaethetised then this would be the true work of the Memory Pill.

And re the CTF Pill, the only problem with your suggestion that we should 'wake up' to the truths via ourselves is that we may not 'know' what these truths mean without the thoughts of others.

Great contribution Jaysi, thank you.

Jaysi said...

Karl, Thanks for reading!!

Let me clarify that by "alone", I meant without a pill, not without other people. Having others around to play with ideas is great as well as enjoyable and useful!

Cheers,

Jaysi

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jaysi;
No, thank you for posting you comments, and for your thoughts on my pill question.

Sobering thoughts!!!

*Pun TASTIC!!*

Aloha Gary said...

BLIMEY! wot another brilliant post! Or should that be BLOHMI! to keep it ITLADian and start a new wordplay?

Karl are you going for blogger of the year? Or just a Poster-Boy
*groans*
Well we’ll have to have all kinds of prizes for best film post, etc, etc, the ITLAD awards night – Tony see me for opportunities tee-hee!

And probably yet another book too Karl – fab

Where to start? as there are so many comments, I’ve taken the liberty of cutting and pasting

First excuses:
*hands Karl note from mum*
I’ve been off-post in Glastonbury experiencing 1st life in the 17-24th dimensions, and it feels very surreal to be posting about ITLAD as somehow subversive and alternative, when its considered Life101 where I’ve just been!


Would I take either pill – NO!

Why? because I already have tools and techniques that allow both of the purposes of the aforementioned pills and I have no wish to take artificial chemicals that have unknown effects (NB there are no such things as side-effects, they are effects!) despite what boffins pretend to be otherwise

*shakes fist at big PHarma*

Removing pain associated with memories is an available, teachable technique called Time Line Therapy ™ invented by one of my Huna teachers, Dr Tad James. This was carefully chosen and used by the Croatian institute of psychology for dealing (successfully) with the huge numbers of PTSD cases after the Balkans war.

(Far be it for me to suggest it makes use of many Huna ideas and techniques, in addition to NLP principles too.)

The important thing is it works fabulously, and I have had the privilege to facilitate many people to completely let go of the pain in their lives by retrieving the ‘lesson’ hidden in their event, and to move forward in an empowered way. This allows them to continue on their path, but energised by their experience, as you allude to Tony in your post.

Hawaiians say that God would not give you a cloud without a silver lining somewhere inside to lighten your life.

aloha e maluhia
Gary
)O(
/|\

Aloha Gary said...

Dreamer – great post. I loved your lovely painting of pictures with language, thank you.

waking up with too much info – sounds like Equus to me – cue Hurly Burly film post….

Aloha Gary said...

Ra from ca said:
Buddhist thinking that this pain is meant awaken me to something beyond my previous limited thinking

Hawaiian thinking is spot on the same here

(to be fair I’ve met some very high ranking Hawaiians who say some of their teachings come from Tibet, and some very high ranking Tibetans who say their teachings come from Hawaii, and then there’s the fact that both kahuna/monks outfits are identical, even the big hats!)

one place the Buddhist-Tibetans and Hawaians disagree is the purpose of life. Buddhists seem to feel this is enlightenment, whilst Hawaiians focus more on joy and fun, as you’ll get back to enlightenment when you ‘change address’ back into spirit, so the purpose of life is to live it!!
(well they do like simple)

aloha
Gary
)O(
/|\

Aloha Gary said...

johar: great ideas, you posted:
Would this allow us to time travel, communicate telepathically, find balance, harmony and fundamental connection with the universe. Would it eventually lead to us all experiencing each other subjectively, inhabiting a global phaneron of consciousness?

All of these things are now possible and available if we simply manage to unplug ourselves from everyday ‘reality’ and allow ourselves to see the whole picture, not just what the conscious-mind-thought-police want us to see – the red pill really is easily available – see Karl’s not so cryptic comments about mr Crowley, (although I’m more of a Dion Fortune person myself).

Choose your red pill of choice: magick/hypnotic/meditation/journeying
and off you go…

aloha
gary
)O(
/|\

Aloha Gary said...

Hmm, want to say more about CTF pill equivalents but not sure where to start - Karl! can we have an off-blog please?

Gary
)O(
/|\

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Aloha Gary;
Yes, sure. You know my email so I shall await your additional thoughs with eagerness and address them forthwith.

And surely you know me well enough by now that a "Blogger Of The Year Award" would be humbly accepted and then donated to the ITLAD trophy cabinet for all to co-hold.

*smile*