Sunday, 22 June 2008

The Week’s Most ITLADic Scientific News Volume 2 (Top 5) EXTRA

Following on from the interest generated by last Sunday’s Inaugural ITLADic Science Update, please find below links to a summary of this week’s Top 5 items.
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I will place my own interpretation of the articles throughout the day in the comments section.
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Weird Unexplained News
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I give you this:
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Wiltshire Crop Circle Identified As Symbolic Code For First Ten Places Of Pi

Finally, as a humorous aside, these news items help explain a LOT that I have experienced in life!!

Bad Guys Really Do Get The Most Girls

Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex

Scans Find Homosexual Feminine Side Is In The Brain

I will be available most of Sunday to answer any questions you have on these articles and to discuss the implications within ITLADic Philosophy.

I hope we can generate as interesting discussion as we did last Sunday.

If you missed last week’s Top 5 then click here

Happy Sunday Reading, and please place your opinions, questions and observations in the comments section.

A Dark Philosopher
Karl L Le Marcs

186 comments:

Karl L Le Marcs said...

And this item is just stunning. It's not immediately ITLADic (hence the reason I place it here) but I can personally see the deeper Philosophical implications of it and the obvious importance within Quantum Physics.

Fastest-Ever Flashgun Captures Image Of Light Wave

Speed of light, indeed!

And one that Hurlyburly and all the movie lovers here may be interested in, an interview with M.Night Shyamalan about the Science within his films:

I See Doomed People

Discuss!
*smile*

Hurlyburly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hurlyburly said...

I'd like to thank Karl for posting these links, i shall work my through them during the rest of the day and then comment.

I'd also like to repeat my apology to Karl from before, despite very silly spats that me and Karl seem to find ourselves in, Karl works extremely hard to ensure that this forum is a warm and welcoming one for everybody here and didn't desevere the harsher part of my frustrated reaction. I hate confrontations and usually regret things two minutes after they have happened, even if i feel i have right on my side. The more misunderstood i get the worse i become, i'm sure this is something not only Karl but everyone can relate to! I won't continue to touch on these closed subject but wanted to make sure Karl realised how much he is appreciated around here, not just by myself but by everybody. Thanks Karl.

Back to work (reading through multiple links and ignoring my real job).

22 June 2008 12:15

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Hurlyburly: Thank you, you Beauteous British Boy!
*smile*

I would expect you will particularly enjoy the M.Night Shyamalamananmama.... interview linked in my first comment where he talks of the Science within his films.

Apology unconditionally accepted mate, and I hope we hear some of your thoughts on the ITLADic implications within the links I have included today.

*Manly cuddle*

SM Kovalinsky said...

Karl: Just waking up here but I have managed to read article #2. I have given a shake to Andrew who is now stirring and waking up, and I am sure he will want to post comments when he has read.
So sweet to see Hurly boy's apology and sublime manly cuddle makes life worth living to me. . . The article is most interesting to me in particular because of the reference to Jamesian cognitive science. How much he was able to sense about this process of intuition without the advantage of left/right brain empirical study! This idea of an often competing and dissonant second self in the process of inference, deduction, and intuition was not only strong in James, but in Reik, Jung , Freud, and even in Kierkegaard. This article brings into clear focus why it is that the intuition process can often run afoul of the true facts. I also find interesting the idea of "loss aversion" being hard-wired into the human brain. Tony's dyad brings a higher purpose to the scientific pragmatism of binary mind, and his daemon and eidolon interplay ought to be applied very strongly to cognitive science. I must admit that I have a strong preference for 19 th century writing and idealism over against present scientific theory. That is why Tony, and your own sublime and manifold understanding of the poetic, the Platonic and the literary are so important. A neo-classical approach that would employ the best of Tony's dyad and CTF theory, with aid of your own proclivity to a sort of subtle spycraft in all things which allows you to link and fuse the ancient and classical to the post-modern: if THIS would be applied to 21st century brain science, in my opinion, it would be a wonderful advance. I am not fully awake so not posting at my best, and may have to return with Andrew for another go at it later on. Thank you so much for your formidable input and presence on this blog; it is marvelous and superb and always inspiring to interact with you via your posts.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Morning my dear, and welcome.

I rather pre-thought you may be interested in article #2 (Of Two Minds When Making A Decision) owing to the William James Psychology.

If anyone is unaware of the classic piece of Psychological Literature written by James in 1904 on Consciousness then I urge you to read it with your ITLADic spectacles on:

Does 'Consciousness' Exist?
[by William James]


I thought article #2 was deeply ITLADic as it analyses our reasons for making seemingly impulsive decisions against those made with seemingly deliberate intent; for how are we to 'know' if something we do is predetermined within a Bohmian IMAX recurrence, or is impulsive within a Virgin Life or Bohmian Mutation Virgin Recording?

The duality of consciousness here is further evidenced, thus bringing ITLAD/CTF and the Daemon-Eidolon Dyad more into clear perspective.

I also thank you Susan Marie for your kind words and your continued support to myself, to Tony and to all on this Blog.

ps, Yes, I love the Kierkegaardian nuance within the article also.

Jesamyn said...

Oh Good Evening!!! As Alfred Hitchcock used to say so well!!! Well Karl, I hope you remember the discussion I had on Blog re Octopi a few posts ago!!!i.e. that research had been done that each Octopus has its own *niche* undersea and that when threatened by the usual Bullies that abound!!!.. others in the vicinity emerge, not to specifically*help* or *defend the territory* but apparently in the forward reasoning that they too may need such help in the future!!!Moste fascinating!! and just when I thought I could relax on a Sunday Eve ...Prof. le Marcs has us thinking... and ruminating!! (AND we love it!!!)Oh and we love you too Susan Marie,with the clever words and P town sentiments!! MWAH !!! to both of you!!!....
Jesamyn.

Andrew Giancarlo said...

Karl
I did mange to read the second one and I agree with my mothers crtique and wish I could add more,Karl I have to go to work today for orientyation for my new job but when I come back home i want to read all of them.Im lucky my parents exposed me to James and Kiekegaard because I can refernce them into todays brain science and to Tonys CTF.Even when i was very young they talked and taljked to eachotner about all of this and it stuck with me. and when I was 15 I read some on my own.You are doing inmportant work on this blog and if sir is no good for you i hope Professor with capitalP will do as a compliment!@lIKE i said I will get into all the rest of the 5 when I get back in tonight.

Jesamyn said...

KARL!!! So sorry and apropos of nothing.. oh maybe your link above... do you not want the Tee shirt Logo I saw here in Australia.. bearing on the front
*I See Drunk People*
just kidding btw!!!!:))
Jesamyn!!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn: G'Day my Antipodean Astral Angel.

Now you come to mention it, yes I do vaguely remember that you spoke of Octopuses previously, but I've just done a quick blog search and can't find it, do you remember when it was that you said that or on what post/topic? If you do then let me know and I will place a link back to it for everyone.

Article #5 in my list (New Research On Octopuses Sheds Light On Memory) is interesting in light of further research being done on Cephalopods with smaller brains which is suggesting that Memory (and certainly Long-Term Memory) may NOT be stored within the actual brain, which of course fits in nicely with my "Collapsing The Consciousness Wave (CtCw)" theory of Field Based Objective Consciousness.

Thank you Jez for this analysis, it is wonderful and very useful to everyone.

*reaches for my Professors Mortarboard (Diamante encrusted obviously, with overly elaborate purple tassle with stars in)*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Andrew: Hello my friend, shame your Mother beat you to it!

Here's a suggestion for you then.

As your dear Mother has already mentioned the William James link to the article #2 in my list, why don't you have a think about the Kierkegaardian links during the day, and I would be delighted if you were to place them here later when you return from work.

That would be wonderful.

Thank you as ever Andrew.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn: *giggles*

In a bakery near where I live they used to make a large gingerbreadman with an icing T-Shirt on that said:

"I See Bread People"

*mmmmmmm gingerbreadmen (and women, obviously, equality and all that)*

SM Kovalinsky said...

I know that Andrew will be delighted to do so, as Kierkegaard is a heavy-weight with him regarding inwardness. I was going to add also that I believe article 2 in itself is a wonderful touchstone and facilitator of debate and discussion, with regard to the Peakian dyad and the way in which it may be applied to today's brain theory. I of course intend to break the narrow focus of my concentration and go read another now: comments will be forthcoming.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: I agree entirely with your comments regarding article #2 in my list. This is why I placed it at such a high number in this week's Science News.

Thank you also for wanting to expand your horizons and read all the other links. This is precisely why I wanted to do this each Sunday, so we can incorporate everyone's individual skill areas and come together in the egregore of ITLADic oneness.

*oh dear, when I start to get poetic this early it's not normally a good sign - giggles*

SM Kovalinsky said...

I have just read through #3, and it is quite interesting to me; the idea of ethics and meta-ethical analysis was a huge part of my academic study of philosophy. In the '90s my professor friend ran Excalibur , which was the Center for Applied Ethics here in Morris County, and attracted many professors of philosophy. Just these sorts of medical ethical/legal problems as discussed in article #3 played a large part in the discourse and meta-analysis of this center. I do believe whole-heartedly that ITLAD/CTF and the binary dyad theory is loaded with ethical implications, and of course your superb additions and expansions from philosophy, neuro-science, and literature lend even greater scope to this process. That said, I'll go read another now!

johar said...

Hurly - Just quickly want to say it takes a noble spirit to say the the words and you have done yourself proud.

Karl, Promise to read through the articles and try and comment tonight They look as interesting and thought provoking as last weeks - well done!

Gotta get back to work before I'm sacked!!!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Ah! Yes, article #3 (Technology Unlocks The Silent Mind).

I was struck when first reading this article of the ITLADic importance of the research for IF we are now able to identify thoughts and consciousness within a vegatative physical body and 'unlock the silent mind' then if we think of our own brain and Virgin Life body being such a paralysed body, fallen out of time due to the Glutamate flood prior to actually reaching the point-of-death, then we too, existing within a Bohmian IMAX may be being 'observed' by other consciousnesses.

The meta-analysis can go very deep (as I do on occasion), so I try and keep it all fairly gentle here.

*smile*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: Hi JoJo, such a shame you have to work today. Your input to last week's discussion was superb.

I do intend to post a comment in relation to article #1 in my list shortly based on the email conversation you and I had during the week after last Sunday's "Second Life" article I linked, and the ITLADic implications within Computer Sentience maybe one day providing some proof of CTF.

Anyway, I will get that commented on later for you JoJo.

SM Kovalinsky said...

I actually did just go read through one of the addition articles on the homosexual brain, and I actually find this area to be of huge import. In the 1990s, a gay scientist by the name of LeVay (hope I am remembering his name correctly; its been about 10 years, but I read him widely and there was a lot of debate on campus at FDU about him) set forth his clinical deductions and ethical implications on the gay male brain. He made many enemies in the gay community, and City University of New York had a superb Gay Studies Program which I had wanted to become involved with but due to constraints was unable to. Rick Whitaker is Professor there, and has a book called "Assuming the Position" which describes his gay male thought processes while living as a gay hustler. A beautiful book and delves into his "feminine" thought processes. My son has been interested in the gay writer Signorile, and of course Gender Studies has been the range in Provincetown, along with metaethical analysis. I may go read another; these are the ones which grab me. My own ancestress Louisa May Alcott wrote wonderful essays on the importance of a bisexual humanity in which men could be feminine and women masculine. Very essential in human ethical theory and I've read them all. All great men are hugely bonded to their animas, and of course the feminine in Tony, you and Hurly which I saw from the beginning linked you in my mind to the aristocratic lineage of famous men of great works. Tennessee Williams being the foremost.

SM Kovalinsky said...

I had probably better add this addendum: I realize full well that it is the BRAIN SCIENCE which is of major import here, and I unfortunately have a propensity for using it merely as a segue and jumping-off point to social philosophy. Which is why I usually shy away from the more scientific areas of the blog. I do apologize, and will watch this thread quietly and learn much from it.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Well, I do readily admit that my Persona and Animus are very well balanced.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: No need to apologise, Dear Lady.

Your Philosophical and Sociological/Psychological input to this weekly Scientific is post is vital to help me in pulling all the strings of everyone's skill areas into one arena for the purpose of collective education and development of ITLAD and CtCw et al.

Don't you sit there all quietly Susan Marie or my Diamante Encrusted Mortarboard will have to be donned!

*giggle*

SM Kovalinsky said...

KLLM: Hope you did get to read my addendum above as it was posted simultaneously with your remark. Always feel badly when I go off on one of my tangents. Yes, the anima of Jung is being discovered to have an actual and empirical existence in the human brain, as well as the Jungian soul. Duality of Gender is the mark of all great men: showed up clearly to me in Tony's You Tube with the tilting of his head, and the "feminine" stance is always bound up with the scholar's virtue, and Nietzsche makes much of this ("truth is a woman"). Whether it is the BRAIN or the anima, it has far-reaching social effects, and a man who is purely masculine is a very narrow man indeed. Of course both great virilty and marked femininity in a superior man are intertwined and owe their origins to the same causes. In your own case---but enough. Time to stop my rambling, thank you for these links, at least I may now reflect privately on them!

woodsprite said...

Karl: Thank you for finding such interesting articles from such eclectic sources! I would not have thought of looking at the Daily Telegraph for example, so I'm really grateful you don't have the same prejudices and limitations as I do!

My thoughts Number 1.

Technology is moving exponentially and things which seemed impossible become closer to reality. Complex tasks become within the realms of possibilty for artificial intelligence.

However, the ability of living creatures to perceive, recognise stimuli and respond rapidly requires such a huge amount of information it is staggering. For example, when I stop to analyse how my dog catches a ball I can break the steps down crudely as;

1. Recognise I have the ball in my hand
2. Recognise my body language as being about to throw the ball
3. Remember the properties of a flying ball and its trajectory through space
4. Predict where in space the ball will be within catching range
5. Where she is in space
6. How fast she has to run to get within catching range
7. How high to jump to catch the ball
8. When to open her mouth and grab the ball
To programme a computer to perform all these steps (which are no doubt too crude to succeed) is an incredible feat. And that's just a simple task that my dog does day after day.

Not to mention her training me to take her to the park and throw the ball in the first place!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Tangents are necessary, as without them we would have no Opposites or Adjacents!

*A Trigonometry gag there for the mathematically minded*

All tastes catered for!!

woodsprite said...

Susan Marie: You put the masculinity/femininity dyad in Jungian terms very succinctly.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, thank you, Woodsrpite; would that I had your own formidable scientific bent! Must please Karl immensely. My son was moved deeply by your email and link to him, and when he is done with his job orientation today will reply. Thank you so much ; smk

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Hi-Di-Hi!

Yes, although you wouldn't ordinarily find me anywhere near the Torygraph, they seemed to report this Science News item (article #4 (How A Magnet Turned Off My Speech) in the most laymanic terms I could find, plus they have the video of their own reporter.

This item has been widely reported in other Scientific journals but the content was a bit too deeply scientific and neurological so I thought the Telegraph did the best job for me presenting the ideas to the blog.

Now, your comments on your '8 steps of cognition' prior to throwing the ball are interesting.

Programming a computer to do this is, as you say, an incredible feat, but I think the next development will be within Artificial Intelligence Sentience (see article #1 also), by which I mean, a computer that does not need specific data input to do the 8 things you list, but it learns to do them itself (and thus the computer indeed does become an 'itself')

Thank you for seeing the importance of this particular article Di, you always provide much useful input to these Sundays and I thank you personally.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite and Susan Marie: I'm impressed by everyone in their own individual ways. And anyone who takes the time to read these posts and comment has my immediate gratitude.

woodsprite said...

*blushes*
Thank you Susan Marie and Karl for your comments.

Karl: I think it is probably true that we are getting closer to the Isaac Asimov's world than we imagine. But I still wonder whether it will ever be possible to recreate true creativity - the leap from one concept to another? Whatever quality it is that can produce a Michaelangelo or a Samuel Beckett for example. That is for me the thing that makes us human and separates us from the artificial.

Now I'm pondering on the Hal computer idea in 2001 which muddies that argument but follows on from your comment....

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Yes, indeed. Taking a view of the world's of Isaac Asimov, Phillip K.Dick, even Douglas Adams we can see glimpses of the Science we 'know' today.

As I have always said, "Today's Science Fiction is tomorrow's Science Fact"

Existentially we hit a snag! Humanity is trying to answer these metaphysical conundrums whilst being 'trapped' in the finiteness of it's mind and language which could ultimately all leave us wallowing around in deep depression like Marvin the Paranoid Android!

*smile*

woodsprite said...

Karl: But Marvin had a brain the size of the Universe and had to use on menial tasks. Mine on the other hand is much more limited and I'm spending all my Sunday on here instead of doing housework so I should be a happier, if dirtier, character!

Hoorah! You've inadvertently given me the perfect excuse not to get the Hoover out!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: YAY!!

On my Schrodinger-Everett Quantum Fridge door is a magnet which reads:

"A Clean House Is A Sign Of A Wasted Mind"

*smile*

"Wearily on I go, pain and misery my only companions. And vast intelligence, of course. And infinite sorrow."
- Marvin, the Paranoid Android
(Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy - Douglas Adams)

woodsprite said...

Karl: *Smile*

Anyway.. Number 2

I thought this was interesting confirmation of the difference between right brain and left brain thinking and an elegant way of demonstrating the two ways of decision making.

Are there links between this item and the ones on masculinity/femininity, I wonder? I'm sure there is evidence to show that there are gender differences in this area.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Yes, article #2 (Of Two Minds Making A Decision), is superb when looked at with the Left-Right Brain Psychology and within the Daemon-Eidolon Dyad, and even within my sub-duality of Consciousness.

There has been MUCH research into the links between Left/Right brain Psychology within the sexes yes, and I shall add a couple of links to things of interest below:

Sex I.D Test - Find Out How Your Mind Works

Are You Right or Left Brain Dominant?
The Silhoutted Lady Test

(which was posted on blog previously but at a time when the traffic here was not as volumous as today)

If you consider the ideas behind article #2 when reading the two additional links I included in the original post on the homosexual brain then I'm sure you will be as intrigued as I am.

And for the record, I can make the twirling lady on the link above rotate clockwise or anti-clockwise at will (so what that says I have no idea, probably that I'm just a tad different, which is the case in much of life really)

woodsprite said...

Karl: I don't know how significant it is but it was noteworthy, NOBODY I work with saw the twirling lady turning anti-clockwise. One person could momentarily make her change direction. We wondered whether the fact that we were all female and working therapeutically with children meant we were a skewed sample.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Well, I would agree yes. The way I can make it change spin direction is by changing the way I am using my mind. If I am logically thinking it will spin one way, but if I then creatively think it spins the other way. I've even made her STOP spinning on a coule of occasions, and that is just weird!!!

I have to go to the pub now!! Awwww! But I will be back soon, so everyone please keep the questions and the discussion flowing until I get back.

Karl

SM Kovalinsky said...

Well, as Karl has left to attend to his pressing business, I will roll it along by saying I did just manage to read article #1, as did Andrew, who is all showered and dressed and preparing to leave, but may post a comment as well. This is a technological leap ahead for cognitive science; one wonders what the state of things may be a century hence. As would be the case, I got completely waylaid by the supposedly humorous aside articles, and have now read them all, and as is typical of me, they were the ones which truly interested me the most. I supposed they lend themselves more immediately to social theory and to abstraction, which is where I am most at home. Do see a dual-purpose in the first of these, and I think KLLM, that you are a paradox concerning the first for sure (the times, they are a'changing).

woodsprite said...

Karl: Have a pint for me!

I've just completed the sex ID test and I'm smack in the middle - I scored 0!

Actually this is probably accurate as I don't really fit the stereo-typical female profile. But my spacial awareness IS awful!

Andrew Giancarlo said...

Karl,
(or more formalley Professor LeMarcs!)
I did read #1 too and I think it sure give plenty to think of with future studies. Like you said it science fiction has a way of turnning into truth and reality. I am sort of rushe d to leave now but I wanted to tell you I can add maybe a little insight. About Soren K. as thinker . He saw conflict in the mind and soul ,. he tought the age of the Individual was the future. If the brain is binary and Tony has a dyad theory right in tune with that science,then maybe SK was seeing this in his division of the crowd is untruth in time and the single gets truth in eternity. The daemon could be what he drove at questing for new inwardness in society. Maybe if i wasnt rushing that could be put better!

SM Kovalinsky said...

Well, yes, Andrew: we know you are not at your best when rushing; neither am I.
I can say that I myself do grasp the Kierkegaardian essence of binary mind: In my very first email communication to Tony, I asked him if he knew that he was like Kierkegaard. I for one view Ks juxtaposition of the Crowd vs the Individual (Temporeal vs Eternal) as essential to human ethics and especially government and law. When I was a student of philosophical jurisprudence, Kierkegaard came up quite often.

SM Kovalinsky said...

I did just read #4 as well. It seems chilling in the implication of how this sort of technique might be mis-used or abused (perhaps I have too much Orwellian imagery in my own mind). I did think it was interesting that as music arises in the right brain hemisphere, one could sing, although speech was hindered. Perhaps this is why there is a strong and fierce affinity to music in many who are autistic or inclined to schizophrenic breaks? Struck me that way.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Well, I am on a roll, so I just read #5, and that means I have read all 5 + 3 extra, so all in their entirety. Most interesting regarding how tracks are laid down in long and short term memory, and what can disrupt this process, or even make it too excessive in its mechanism. The psychiatrist Peter Kramer held the belief that Prozac could somehow erase the EFFECTS of emotional traumatic memory; this was highly interesting. I do remember the author Phillip K. Dick once saying, "Sometimes I wish I had no memory at all.", and it is true that his Gnosticism weighed like a nightmare on his mind, as it flashed its dark memories across his often tormented mind. Makes me wonder if something was awry in his brain chemistry, and of course he aggravated his brain with the use of drugs.

woodsprite said...

Susan-Marie: Oh how wonderful it would be if Prozac had that magical power! I have had bouts of clinical depression as a result of life events and although Prozac was helpful to lift me out of the debilitated hopelessness, I still had to deal with the effects of traumatic memories the hard way. Sadly the process runs slowly with no fast forward button (or replay for that matter!)

SM Kovalinsky said...

Thank You, Woodsprite. Alas, I am in the same condition, and neither Prozac nor Zoloft nor Effexor XR have ever given much relief. Kramer based his theory on a clinical study of his patients: And it is true, for me, in the beginning, I DID "forget" all the trauma. But it wore off (they even call it 'prozac saturation end point' or something). I think much of the population, at least in America, lives with too much memory. Hence, a book like Wurtzel's "Prozac Nation" here in America. I think Kierkegaard was truly on to something when he spoke of memeory and identity being shifted into the eternal realm within. Tony would call it the Daemon territory.

woodsprite said...

Thoughts on #3

This provided me with one of those "of course!" moments. I have been aware that different areas of the brain are stimulated by different types of thoughts and that this can be detected by MR scans. It is not such a leap to see this as a window to communication with someone who is not able to move in any physical way. Of course we cannot share the precise thoughts this way but it does open up the opportunity for yes/no alternatives. It reminds me of the book/film "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" by Jean-Dominique Bauby who communicated via blinks after a severe stroke.

woodsprite said...

Susan-Marie: My twin sister has significant learning difficulties and now lives with me. She brings me enormous pleasure in being able to share her approach to life and teaches me a great deal in many ways.

One thing she has taught me is that imagination is a blessing and a curse. Becuse of her limited imagination, she has been able to move on from major changes relatively quickly. For example, she was very sad when our mother died but adjusted much quicker than I would have expected. It seemed that whereas I felt a deep sadness when I thought about the future times when I would look to my mother's guidance and love, Elaine was able to be reassured that there were other people to help her with the things that my mother had done. Similarly, when she came to live with me I asked her if she was happy to be here or if she would prefer to be in her old home. She could not understand the question. She just kept repeating, "But I can't go back can I?" Although she has very detailed long term memory is excellent(not always for things most people would think relevant - her filtering process is different), it seems she mostly lives in the present tense and that helps her get over trauma.

SM Kovalinsky said...

That is enlightening to me, indeed. I do feel that I also have suffered more in an emotional sense in terms of my husband's loss than has my son (although he is perplexed and bewildered mentally by it, it seems). That your sister would say, "But I can't go back, can I?" is actually a sort of Stoicism like Seneca's, and would be considered by the Stoics to be wisdom. She sounds like a love! The range and spectrum of brain wiring is indeed an enchanting wealth of types which we would do well to learn from.

SM Kovalinsky said...

By the way, are you fraternal or identical twins?

roshni said...

karl, I think u r a very committed person....and u do a gr8 job on this blogsite....
the truth is that I get confused easily because of my limited knowledge and lack of indepth study...Im still grasping the minute details of a lot of things..ive a lot of thinking to do....im a happy spirit... litle things make me happy....I get bored easliy....Ive to work on that.....u inspire me to read more and understand before blurting out thoughts that r topmost on my mind....thnx!

woodsprite said...

We're fraternal twins. Elaine has dark hair and dark eyes like my Dad whereas I've got the Irish auburny hair and green eyes. Elaine is also very small - she's only 4ft2ins tall. We were studied by paediatricians when we were children and no doubt photos of us can be found in medical journals with our eyes blacked out! I was classed as gifted and Elaine was classed as "mentally handicapped" and therefore we were interesting to the scientists! In actual fact we are no more genetically alike than any other siblings aand although we were brought up in the same family, we were inevitably treated very differently. So not really that interesting!

woodsprite said...

HI Roshni! It's lovely to hear from you. Your happy spirit is always welcome!

johar said...

Susan Marie and Woodsprite - Interesting comments regarding the ability of some medication to erase traumatic memories. Karl's post on propranalol discussed this at length, you may find it worthwhile revisiting:

http://cheatingtheferryman.blogspot.
com/2008/04/dont-forget-to-take-your-
memory-pill.html

I've finished article #1 and here are my thoughts -

It's called Artificial Intelligence but is it any more artificial than the Bohmian IMAX in which most of us 'exist'?
This computer is capable of amazing cognitive functions, getting ever closer to mimicking human function and ability. But can this technology ever achieve awareness? If sentience collapses the consciousness wave, creating subjective consciousness, will it ever be possible to achieve this within a computer matrix?
I believe the discoveries being made are coming ever closer to proving Tony's theory of the Bohmian IMAX.

I also wonder if it may be possible, to one day, record the last moments of a persons life via brainwave activity onto the super computer and discover that in those last few moments the whole of that person's life has been laid down! What an awesome thought.

Karl's post - Where is the Internet? is becoming less of an analogy and more of a reality.

Ok onto article #2!

SM Kovalinsky said...

WOODSPRITE: Well, I DO find it interesting! No surprise that you were classed as gifted. I was as well, in literature. My son was also, and yet neurologically impaired along with it: High IQ constrained by disability, and yet mastering it as well.

ROSHNI: Good to hear from you. Karl does inspire all to do their best; he is so balanced and magnificently intelligent and prolific a thinker and writer, you find yourself measuring all against his standard, which he does not speak, but IS. He is a born Professor (the true ones are born, and not made through formal schooling) and has raised the level of this blog up even higher than the lofty Peakian height on which it began. I always love to receive your emails, Roshni; write me again.

roshni said...

hey! woodsprite...y do evryone call u Di?

woodsprite said...

Johar: Wow! That helped my thinking enormously. Of course, a computer is not a sentient being so cannot be an observer, so cannot collapse the wave. THAT is what makes the difference between life and machine.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Roshni: Her name is Diane! (I had wondered as well!--silly)Woodsprite is great, too, as is your own lovely name.

Johar: Excellent point you make about the Bohmian IMAX; I hope Tony will see it when he returns. And I could not agree with you more RE KLLM's Internet as reality and not mere metaphor, and it should be rushed into publishing, in my own maniacal opinion.

woodsprite said...

Roshni: They call me Di because my name's Diane.

Susan-Marie: I was gifted in literature too. I just made odd choices of subjects to study - Chemistry, Biology (which demanded I worked hard to pass) and English (which I simply loved)at A-Level, but it enabled me to study Psychology at University.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Well, it all worked to a very good purpose, I can see that, Woodsprite!

roshni said...

SM, thnx! I will write to u soon.
please bear with my english...there maybe many mistakes...english is not my first language its my third language..i dont think in english so there are many syntax errors....im trying my best....

woodsprite said...

Susan-Marie: One thing that really excited me when I discovered Tony's book was that it linked so many disparate things that had interested me through my life. It seemed like everything was leading me to this point. It's almost as if my daemon has turned a light on at various points as if to say "Remember this, it will come in handy later".

woodsprite said...

Roshni: This blog isn't always easy for people with English as their first language to understand! You do much better than I would be able to! And I think you're important to the thinking process - your viewpoint based on a different culture which seems more accepting of a lot of the ITLAD ideas is wonderful. (In my humble opinion anyway)

johar said...

Woodsprite, I totally agree with you on the daemonic influence. That sense that once discovered, one was led to this specific place and time. Daemonic intentionality methinks!

SM Kovalinsky said...

WOODSPRITE: That IS interesting, because in my very first email to Tony, I told him that "all the strands of my being came together when I read you" (and then I told him that I was transposing Kierkegarrd a bit). This is the beauty of Tony, he crafts things together, and his book is a beautiful tapestry of all I love and ponder. And then KLLM is just a super craftsman and tapestry weaving philosopher of the highest order: the two of them are to me a divine windfall from the heavens.

SM Kovalinsky said...

JoJo: Am with you all the way on those last words of yours, wonderfully put, in a nutshell!

roshni said...

woodsprite, u r so kind...i have to meet u whn u come to india again...and u have such amazing ideas.....simple amazing ideas!

roshni said...

hello, johar ( meaning jewel in arabic...) i really liked yr last post...`how many times`...i have wondered many times....."Shall I now do something completely spontaneous or radically different? Will that alter the path I’ve trodden maybe a thousand times before or am I, in fact, simply repeating the same pre- recorded experience yet again?" before... im going to do something impulsive.....theres this nagging doubt......

SM Kovalinsky said...

Roshni: By the way, considering that English is your third language, you make precious little in the way of mistakes! I have a hard time keeping the science grounded even in my own familiar language, and launch into the Father tongue of philosophical discourse far too often!

woodsprite said...

I think tht the people who contribute to this blog are all part of the whole collective cosciousness that is ITLAD. One person alone, not even Tony who started the whole thing, cannot generate such depth of understanding. Of course Karl and Tony gather it all together and make sense of it, giving advice and guidance to nudge us on.

I'm quite stimulated by it all today and have totally lost track of time - so I'd better organise some food! Thank you all for today - as they say hereabouts "I'm buzzing!"

SM Kovalinsky said...

Yes, that buzz is the point of it, and keeps all this going, I would think. In philosophy they speak of being intellectually "on fire" which I often feel here.

johar said...

Roshni, Thank you for your words. Your observations, comments and insights into your culture and religion have been fascinating to me and your English is great!

Stay happy, little spirit!

roshni said...

woodsprite: yes!each person here, on this earth is special and will leave his soul behind for future lives....

roshni said...

good night all ..lovely meeting all the girls of this blog...missing robin and jesmyn...
im going to sleep its midnight here....

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Everyone: Hi, I'm back. Apologies for having to go away for a couple of hours (owing to personal family business, which was conducted in the pub, naturally), however, I see that you've been entertaining youselves so I am happy. I will now spend sometime reading through what you have all been saying and will comment on my thoughts soon.

*group hugs*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Thank you for taking the helm while I was away.

Your comments re article #1 are interesting as I saw this as being the MOST ITLADic news item of the week, owing to a discussion I had with Johar last Sunday after my inaugural Science update:

I will place the discussion in the next comment box!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

DISCUSSION BETWEEN KARL L LE MARCS AND JOHAR RE LAST WEEKS "SECOND LIFE" POST AND ARTICLE #1

Johar: "I've just been reading your comment on the blog:

(KLLM) "If in our 'reality' we can now exist in 'second life' via brainwaves alone, then surely this makes Tony's idea that what we term 'reality' may simply also be a holographic representation controlled via the brainwaves of our original self, even stronger."

If it becomes possible to record brainwaves would this create a sentient being that could live within a quantum computer in the same way we live within the Bohmian IMAX? And would communication be possible between us in the Bohmian IMAX and the recorded brainwaves like communication is possible between avatars within second life?"


Karl L Le Marcs: ""Erm, No! I wouldn’t say so as “sentience” is a lot more than just “brainwaves”. There is a report published just today (which is currently going to be in the Newsround next Sunday) about the world’s currently fastest Quantum Computer and research into “teaching” it “sight”. There is a long way to go until artificial intelligence is anywhere near “sentience”.
Good question though, and thanks for reading all I say.
"

Johar: "Wouldn't it be amazing if it was possible, one day, to record the last moments of the dying brains brainwaves and finding that the persons entire life has been recorded in those last few seconds! Thus proving Tony's theory."

Karl L Le Marcs: "Yes it would. So far that is the stuff of Science Fiction but as I always say, all of tomorrow’s Science is today’s Science Fiction."

Fantastic stuff JoJo, and so pertinent to today's article #1

SM Kovalinsky said...

Thanking you for placing this conversation here; very illuminating.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Why do you say I am a "paradox" concerning the first of my humorous aside links?

I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts!

re article #4, I totally agree with your Orwellian outlook, yes. But I also look at this research in the field of Mental Health from Asperger's to Autism and Schizophrenia. Plus of course the work of Wilder Penfield as documented by Tony in ITLAD.

Excellent observation Susan Marie, see you DO have a Scientific side!!

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, it is a relief to hear that you see some science in my remarks: I am always afraid that I am trapped in the philosophic purview, never to escape again.
As for the paradox, I think - or at least you seem strongly to my own perception - that you are an example of the 2 opposing sides of manhood fused. In the sense that the article has juxtaposed the nice male who loses out, while cunning nature favors the dark and evil male, I would say that you are along the lines of what Nietzsche had in mind with the OverMan: a Machivellian Christ. And that in this era is gaining ground, has power beyond the other 2, which are outmoded dichotomy and dying out. I know what I am trying to say here, but I do have to curb certain of my terms, in all politeness.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Interesting that you were "smack in the middle" on the Sex ID test, as I was marginally female!!!
*shrugs*

I won't do the gag about why women can't park being attributable to men telling then quite wrongly what certain length are!

*ahem*

Regarding your comments on article #3, I agree yes, and the Bauby book is wonderful. If you imagine that what we think to be real may just exist within a Bohmian IMAX then who is to say that we ourselves are not the comatose, paralysed ones being observed!!

Makes you think doesn't it?

And re Computer Sentience, please read the discussion between JoJo and I that I have placed a few comments above here!

Thank You for all your input again Di, very, very, excellent stuff.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Andrew: My little genius, how very well put. Yes, I agree re article #1, that this is surely the way forward for consciousness, especially in Kierkegaardian philosophy.

Superb, Andrew, Superb!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Roshni: Thank you SO much for your kind words, Rosh.

Your happy spirit is invaluable here, and if I can help in any way to bring some deeper knowledge to you then I am happy for that.

Your words on how I inspire you are deeply humbling, and I thank you.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: Thank you for reminding us of my previous post on Propranalol:

Don't Forget To Take Your Memory Pill
[by Karl L Le Marcs]


regarding your thoughts on article #1 I have placed some of the discussion that you and I had on email last week, following my placing the "Second Life" article in last week's Top 5.

Your comments today are BANG on, JoJo, within my own CtCw theory so I applaud you.

And thanks also for linking back to my "Where Is The Internet?" Post.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Oh My! First you call me a "British Midwife to the American Pregnancy" and now A Nietzschean Overman!

Ubermensch! I say!
*smile*

BLIMEY!

I shall now have to go and retrieve my cowering ego from the cupboard under the stairs!

Joking aside, thank you for your very kind words and YES, I certainly am seeing more of a Scientific angle to your thoughts, which is the whole point of me compiling this list each week.

To educate and evolve the egregore to which we all contribute.

johar said...

Article #2

The initial description of system 1 and system 2 had me thinking of Freud's ego states for some reason.

System 1 is the ID - instincts, gut reaction, intuition, drive.

System 2 is the Superego - Rule based, capable of correcting and overriding ID (system 1) judgment

And the Ego acts as the filter between the two, finely balancing them and also as the glue that creates coherence and the Self.

I say this because it strikes me that in conditions such as schizophrenia and bipolarity the Ego (self) state and it's function is atypically wired, causing discordance, imbalance and a perception of reality that differs to neuro- typical beings.

The whole article lends itself beautifully to Tony's neurological duality.

The only frown I had was at the end where it looks at constructing environments that foster sensible decisions, to encourage better choices. This suggests to me the limiting of creativity and free expression, thus dampening the vital role of the Id, with too much emphasis on the Superego. That, in my opinion silences daemon guidance. My interpretation only, of course.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, I like that last paragraph, Johar, and that interpretation, I like it alot!

woodsprite said...

I'm back after a very tasty dinner! If I start nodding off blame it on the food and the glass of wine I'm enjoying!

Johar: I agree wholeheartedly with your comment, especially your observation that the author implies that rational decisions are best. As I've commented before, most decisions are not rational, and as the experiment described in the article shows, even when we THINK we're being rational there are numerous subconscious messages which impact on our decisions.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: Very astute comments JoJo, yes. In fact we can take it a step further and consider (within article #2) that System 1 to be the Eidolon and System 2 to be the Daemon.

Your concern re the way the article ended is a logistical one yes, but we must always remember that if the Daemon is present to guide us then it already knows what has happened and this the limitation of creativity and free expression is redundant.

Superb analysis again JoJo, thank you.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: I thought blame was always to be apportioned to "the Boogie"
*smile*

Now, what is 'rational'?

If we exist is a Bohmian IMAX recurrence then do we act 'rationally' by being a playback? Or do we act 'rationally' by taking Daemonic Guidance away from the past life memory (at which point, of course, we would lose Daemonic Guidance).

*scratches head*

woodsprite said...

Nice to see you've returned from your hard day at the *cough* office Karl. Did you have a pint for me as requested? As you can see we didn't get too far with our homework though a great deal of very uplifting conversation took place. I still haven't commented on #4 yet.

#4: I found this particularly interesting as when I get a migraine I experience the same loss of speech. The idea of having a little gizmo to kick start the brain when it misbehaves like that has its appeal.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: I may have imbibed a few of the house ales on your behalf yes, and I thank you.

I must say that I was very impressed on my return to see the level of discourse that you had all been enjoying!

re article #4, Do you REALLY have this experience through Migraine? That is VERY interesting if you do! You will probably know of the area of the Brain called Broca's area which deals with language and speech processing but if we can provide Migrainal causality evidence then that is astonishing!

WOW!

woodsprite said...

My interpretation of "rational" is implying logical steps (eg. If A then B) which should be evident and as my maths teacher would say, you should be able to show your working out. There are obvious strengths to this form of thinking.

Irrational, intuitive, creative thinking involves the creative leap of ideas. But now you've brought Daemonic Guidance into the equation, what appears to be based on intuitive thinking could also be rational thinking if we could see the Daemon's working out.

Ah! This is why you are an excellent teacher, you can ask a question that leads your "pupil" to think things through from another side.

If this is the boogie, then I blame it! (I don't think I can blame anything on the sunshine - we haven't had any. Or the moonlight for that matter. And certainly not the good times!)

SM Kovalinsky said...

See, Woodsprite, this is the Socratic maiutic method of inquiry, happening on this blog before my eyes. This is why I was so fired up, it occurs so rarely, and almost never so smoothly and regularly, without awareness or intention.

woodsprite said...

And yes, I get exactly the effect you see in the video. I find I can't string words together at all. I haven't tried singing instead although that's a technique used to help people who stammer. They very often get round the stammer through singing instead.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: "Ah! This is why you are an excellent teacher, you can ask a question that leads your "pupil" to think things through from another side."

*blush*

What I would say is that in order for the teacher to be excellent then the excellence must be reciprocated in the students!

So thank you.

*dances to the Jackson 5*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: re the Socratic maiutic method.........

But in this instance it was with my full intention and awareness.

*wink and smile*

woodsprite said...

I had exactly that experience after my particularly strong lucid dream. What might that suggest to you?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Well, yes. Psychologists call it the singer-effect, and it works similar to the way how virtually all of us sing in a different accent to how we talk. The memory channels and the neuronal firings to replicate a singing voice with tune (except in my case) requires more brain functionality than simply talking so I can see how this would help bypass stammer and or Broca's area neuronal mis-firings.

Great observation Di, thank you.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: I'm sorry, what experience did you have after your strong Lucid Dream, the Migraine??

If so then MOST people who begin Lucid Dreaming tell of Migraine and severe headaches. I myself had them for at least two years while I was learning.

I can only attribute it to your brain not getting the "downtime" that it should be getting during sleep as in Lucid Dreams we do maintain and element of consciousness above that of ordinary sleeping state.

johar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johar said...

Karl,

If we take great creative (and I include scientific) leaps forward,this could conceivably take us into a Bohmian mutation, how then can creativity be redundant? Isn't this evolution?

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: What I meant, and what was picked up by Woodsprite earlier, was that IF we are existant within a recurrence of our past life then creativity is redundant as we are merely the actors on the stage repeating the same lines. BUT, if we have mutated the Bohmian IMAX and now live in a MMI/MWI probability density function type Virgin Recording then, and only then, would we be creative. The evolution of the Eidolon is a cumulative effect over thousands if not millions, if not trillions of recurrences.

woodsprite said...

Karl: I was just wondering about the particular symptom of speech loss in my migraine - but your comment is pertinent. I always get the speech loss with migraine whaatever the cause. And I did sleep deeply afterwards.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Thank you, I am glad yoy found my comment pertinent.

I have never met anyone with speech loss owing to Migrainal causality, that is fascinating and we must talk about that when we meet with Ed in a couple of weeks (providing you don't have a Migraine that day, obviously), but I think your story is terribly important in the study of Broca's Area and the like.

woodsprite said...

Karl: I think you can safely say that your Sunday Science Service is officially successful. Over 100 posts today! And it's not over yet! Wow!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Thank You.

As long as it is of interest and of use to my fellow ITLADians then I am happy to do it.

I do keep making more work for myself don't I?
*giggles*

woodsprite said...

Karl: You're a glutton for punishment but we love you for it!

*hug*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

*bows respectfully*

johar said...

Article #3

An amazing tool to enable those trapped in their bodies with no voice to finally find expression. I hope it can be developed further, maybe by engineering some sort of portable brainwave machine that the individual can use in the home and can be read by friends and relatives, thus making communication possible. I don't know, a stream of thought only.

This article also fascinates me because if we can communicate with consciously aware individuals who are unable to move, how long before we can communicate with individuals in a coma state. And from this stream of thought, if a we can communicate with a coma patient, will we be actually communicating with the daemonic part of their subjective consciousness, due to reduce sentience.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: Yes to your observation of article #3.

Now, think about this:

What if the 'silent mind' was the mind of the Eidolon, and that conscious thoughts that were being observed were the Bohmian IMAX!

This is why I saw this article as being ITLADic!

johar said...

So we're actually observing what the individual is living - AWESOME and MIND BLOWING!

The potential layers upon layers involved is infinite!

This again links back to the idea of being able to record brainwaves, what we may be able to record is the Bohmian IMAX of the individuals life.

Excellent, Karl, thanks!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: You're very welcome, as always JoJo!

Now...........If YOU are the observer, watching a machine observe the Bohmian IMAX neuronal brain mechanisms of a patient then does that "life" exist outside of your perception?

*goes for lie down in darkened room with my now legendary wet flannel and oversized gingham handkerchief*

woodsprite said...

But we're still unable to share the actual thoughts/experience of the other person. All we can observe is the area of the brain becoming stimulated when the person is asked to visualise playing tennis for example. I'm sure tht Tim Henman's experience of plying tennis is subtly different to mine (he might have the raquet make contact with the ball for example) but what will be observable in both our brains is that an electrical change will occur in the same region of the brain.

woodsprite said...

Apologies for the missing or extra letter As in my posts ... my keyboard can be a bit playful *smile*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Within Materialist Philosophy I would agree. But I posited the question from with the Idealist Philosophers ideology.

Tim "Come on Tim" Henman, may not exist outside of your perception, indeed nothing may exist outside of your perception, so it is possible that any brain imagery that you perceive is purely the construct of your sole mind.

Now if that was the case, then why couldn't you have imagined a better British Tennis Player!!

*smile*

johar said...

We are observing the thoughts of an individual, whose thoughts are their Bohmiam IMAX.

We could be being observed ourselves, our Bohmian IMAX the subject of thought observation and so on and so forth!

OUCH!

woodsprite said...

Karl: Ah! there I must agree with you. In the Idealist philosopher's world there is no way of knowing what is real and wht is illusion. Or indeed if there is a difference between the two.

Now I ask myself why on earth, in my personal construct, did I have to create Celine Dion?

woodsprite said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: *nods*

Now you're getting an idea of the kind of things I think about all day!

BLIMEY!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: *hee hee*

I think the existance of Celine Dion disproves all of Idealist Philosophy!

HA!

SM Kovalinsky said...

For Plato, the eternal realm of Ideas is wholly real, and this that the Bohmian Imax makes is a distorted copy. And for Kant, the world is empirically real but transcendentally ideal. To me, the Daemon would evolve more fully to Plato's eternal realm. But I have too much Platonic philosophy in me, and not enough science .

woodsprite said...

Johar: That brings to mind a line in a song by a Canadian singer (not Celine Dion) called Bruse Cockburn which goes "Infinity always gives me vertigo" - I know exactlywhat he means

woodsprite said...

Susan-Marie: *warm smile*

Nobody else, in my personal Bohmian reality, could say that they "have too much Platonic philosophy in me, and not enough science." Wonderful!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: I agree yes, but if we take Platonic form as a concept from Idealist Philosophy and place it within my CtCw and Tony and I's Uber Theory, then 'form' exists eternally on the objective consciousness field and perception is materialism in reality. Immanuel Kant theorised in this area within his Antimonies, as you know.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Thanks for that, Woodsprite. It is a worry of mine, so that is very soothing indeed!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: BUT, if we were in an infinity then we would, by definition be at the very centre, as in every direction from us would like infinity. Thus we would be vertigous in 360 degrees and many dimensions!

*screams*

SM Kovalinsky said...

Yes, I do know. I should know. I have a headache. You are master at all, and I always get caught by you, always. I remember posting you on those very devils of Kant, some time back. Good lord, I may be weak in philosophy, too!!!!!!!!!

woodsprite said...

Karl: Wow! You're right!
*gazes with wide-eyed amazement*

Beautiful isn't it!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: You have one of the strongest Philosophical minds I know, and I spend 5 hours a month with 8 Philosophy Professors over very fine Malt Whiskys!!

*smile*

johar said...

Woodsprite - Interesting song quote for me as I've treated 4 patients with vertigo today which is quite unusual - My daemon is playing with me!

woodsprite said...

Johar: Synchronicity indeed!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

*starts singing the U2 song*

SM Kovalinsky said...

LeMarcs: Well, I have never been caught out as I have been with you, and I am beginning to suspect my own philosophy professors of having played a game with me (letting me think I was brilliant when they knew better---or else they themselves were not so brilliant --hope they don't read this). You are like the fixed point that Archimedes cried out for, and your mind is a match for Pythagoreans of old. You must correspond to one of those geometric shapes which sits in the heavens, and in person you probably have the glow of geometry. Hope my daemon lets me find it some eon. I am a philosophic hodgepodge.

woodsprite said...

Karl: Hehe ... tonight we have the all singing, all dancing, all phiposophising Karl L le Marcs!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: You are my philosophical dear lady.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Should that be my audition for Britain's Got Talent?

*giggles*

woodsprite said...

Karl: Nah, you're too good for that rubbish!

SM Kovalinsky said...

Thank you Woodsprite: I was about to scream that they did not deserve for him to be anywhere near them, etc. . .

woodsprite said...

Well, my philosophising friends, as much as I want to stay up late nd play all night, I must go to bed and try not to dream of 360 degree infinity in every dimension.

Thank you all again for giving me a lovely day. *smile*

Jesamyn said...

WOW!!! I cannot keep up.. I will spend some more time reading the Sunday Discussions today(Monday!!) as I like to do..SM Your Philiosophy Proffs must have recognised your superior intelligence indeed...
and HEY... don't knock Celine guys..she has just had a rub down and has settled in her stable for the evening...
*will be serious later*
Jesamyn

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: My pleasure, Di!

Same time next week eh?

*smile*

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn: Jez, your musical tastes DO include Phil Collins though!!!!

*smiles and runs away before I get an Aussie slap*

johar said...

Hi Jesamyn, You sound on fine form, hope you are well!

Article #4

*sniggers* at the name Muggleton

Anyway, Interesting to me that the subject likened the TMS to a black key, very symbolic when compared to the many posts on here about doors of perception being open, closed and off their hinges etc. This key definitely has the potential to alter, interfere with and maybe improve perception.

It has enormous potential benefit for those living with debilitating symptoms that they want help with.

I can't help but wonder though if there is also something to be said for exploring and understanding neuro atypical minds rather than trying to 'cure' them.

Also, as Prof Walsh comments, what is the potential loss whilst trying to improve things?

SM Kovalinsky said...

That is very well spoken, Johar.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: The main problem within Modern Psychiatry, in my opinion, is the erroneous belief that a neuro a-typicality should be 'treated'. The euphemisms within Mental Health are dreadful, cacophemistic even.

The time I spend with people like my friend Aidan who lives with severe schizophrenia show me that reality is far weirder than neuro typicality can ever imagine.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Your writings on these things should continue and expand, and within Tony''s theories as well: it is of utmost importance, and you have the rare combination of extensive scholarly knowledge and stunning literary force to make impact where others have not.

johar said...

Thank you Susan Marie, call me JoJo!

Article #4 (then sleep!)

It strikes me that the simpler something is, the easier it is to see the answer and so it would appear with the octopuses. With their simpler anatomical structures, ways of showing how memory is activated and stored has been found. And yet despite their simpler structures they are able to learn, remember and perform tasks.

So much intricate, highly complicated advances are being made in our world but the simplest (and yet biggest) questions still can't be answered, can they? I think that is why it is important to keep a sense of childlike wonder about us as amazing insight comes from simplicity.

I try to achieve this in my struggle for understanding and enlightenment - keep it simple and build from there!

This LTP is really interesting. Within the ITLADic framework, is this not the recording device of the Bohmian IMAX and also the 'inherited memories' that connect us all to objective consciousness?

This would explain how these animals behave in coherent, uniform ways. They are not just the memories of a single subjective unit, but the memories of an eternity.

And we are not simply the stored memories, replaying over and over again of a single unit but the single drop of water in an ocean of memories and entanglement.

What is written here, by us all today, is remembered for eternity.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: I think you meant article #5 (New Research On Octopuses Sheds Light On Memory).

Prior to me beginning this Sunday Science Update there was a number a reports over the last couple of months on Cephalopods and memory.

Research has shown that even the smallest Cephalopods, whose brain is tiny can still process from short to long term memory (to a degree anyway).

This suggests to me not solely that all subjective exprience is recorded (as in CTF and ITLAD) but that all objective experience is recorded into the Field of Consciousness (which takes me into my CtCw theory).

This is why my theory sits so well with Tony's as they mutually strengthen each other, whilst being individually strong anyway.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Thank You, I intend to do just as you say.

johar said...

Yes Karl, I did indeed mean Article #5 - Beginning to go cross eyed!

The Article on bad boys was funny. It's the attraction of the dangerous and also, I think, the desire in a woman to 'tame' the beast, so to speak.

You just have to read the plethora of chick lit out there to see it's a recurring theme.

Strong, handsome, man with no scruples, goes round seducing any woman he fancies UNTIL he meets his match in the beautiful heroine who steals his heart!

It's the stuff of romance novels but I've met enough of these guys in real life to know that romance is the last thing on their minds and they are more likely to drive you to heroine than make you theirs!!

Karl L Le Marcs said...
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Karl L Le Marcs said...

Johar: *applauds*

But in the interests of keeping this blog free of misandrism I shall say no more.

*but yeah, I agree, thank goodness I'm not a 'typical' male*

johar said...

You're not a typical anything, Mr.Le Marcs!

Gotta sleep now

Night all

Been a blast!

Thanks Karl, another invigorating Sunday!

SM Kovalinsky said...

JoJo; Those were MY exact words, but exact , except mine was going to be "Professor" rather than "Mr.": You STOLE them from me, even as I was about to post them.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

EVERYONE: Thank You all for you valued and considerable input to this week's Sunday Science NewsRound, you've confirmed my hopes that this would be a useful exercise for all ITLADians and it justifies my time in compiling it.

Thank you ALL, and same time next week to do it all again!!!!

*smile*

johar said...

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH Susan Marie,

Great minds think alike eh! LOL

Entangled Minds in action!

Night night, SMK and Andrew, I hope his orientation day went well.

x

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, thank you, Jo, it did go well, and yes: I see that we do think alike!

Jesamyn said...

Still on Octopusses... sorry!!There was a great film on them a few months ago how they had learned to open a bottle!! Karl.. a new Companion at the Pu.....erm Itladic Hall of Discussion!!
I will think of a suitable retort to Collins_bashing later...Jesamyn.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Jesamyn: Ut-Oh!!!

"I can feel it coming in the air tonight""

*giggles*

I heard that a group of poorly octopusses bought a bottle of medicine.............
........It cost them six quid!

*oh how we all laughed*

Hurlyburly said...

Well. I was about to go through and give my take on the different links but am going to be able to contribute anything fresh after 159 comments? We shall see...!

Hurlyburly said...

Link 1 - Computer - I Robot will happen.

Link 2 - 2 minds - This reminds me of the drama surrounding the England football team and their penalty taking. Because of the stress and pressure they end up in the "manual" part of personality that makes a lot more mistakes. They were trained to visualise and rely on reflex rather than reflection.... hasn't worked...yet!

Link 3

How wonderfuly hopeful and inevitablely controversial!

Link 4

Makes you worry about link number 3 even more really doesn't it!

Link 5

These experiements on all creatures great and small still trouble me, they're going to get the shock of a lifetime one day when they find out we're actually bottom of the brain-chain. Is there another way to test memory other than inflicting pain?

Bad guys.

I equate the Bad Boy thing with the "Femme Fatale" thing. It's an association with drama, adventure and excitement but little chance of long-term substance or lonjevity. I was arguing to somebody yesterday that it's very possible to incorperate a lot of the qualities of a "bad boy" without necessarily being a bad person. I've been both a nice guy and a "bad boy" in my life, i know which one i had more success with! Now i'm a pleasant mixture of both!

Homosexual brains and you -

Some girl i worked with about 6-7 years ago used to tell me this. She also seemed to think i was gay! (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) Are certain qualities gender specific? I think judging on how wonderfuly manipulative and vindictive women "CAN" be, then men that master their female side are boarderline sociopaths *smiles at Karl with familiarity*

Apologies for the shallow response, there is more work to be ignored!

johar said...

Hi Hurly,

Like the Femme Fatale angle, hadn't thought of that but, of course, where there's a bad boy, then there's bound to be a bad girl out there somewhere as well! Personally, though, I think the dark triad tendencies are more prevalent in men, as the research suggests.

In the last paragraph you suggest that men who master their female sides are borderline sociopaths. Are you suggesting that they are simply mastering the vindictive, manipulative qualities that SOME women possess for their own personal gratification? Is it not feasible that a man who is well balanced with his feminine side may show the positive qualities of the female psyche?

Hurlyburly said...

Absolutely, please don't misunderstand my "woman hating" comment! It was said in jest, to make a point. I love women, my mother's a woman that helps
- chris rock

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, Hurly: A little misogyny on you was always charming; you wore it so well! Of course all magnificent people fuse the best of both sexes within themselves, and duality of gender is par for the course among great ones. The bad which does exist in both genders can be refined and redeemed in sensitive and capable persons. You have the Marshall Mathers syndrome: Even at his anti-feminist worst, he came off like an innocent and a force of child-like nature. You have the goods, Hurly, I for one have always been aware of that.

Hurlyburly said...

".....but then i got a little older and realised "she" was the crazy one"

SM Kovalinsky said...

Uh, Yeah. That was indeed the very song I was thinking of. Ima Kill You. Now show me how it relates to the Peakian dyad, HB.

Hurlyburly said...

I shall write you an Eminem / Peakian essay (Two paragraphs!) and post before 4pm today.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Now that would be nice to see! Do it well, HB, as it is actually a very serious area of study; we must show them that we are serious thinkers in this area. Go to, HB!

johar said...

Hurly, Didn't misunderstand you at all, hun!

There are some bad boys and bad girls out there!

I think your observation that it's not alwyas the man with the plan was very astute.

SM Kovalinsky said...

It was astute, and I also took it quite seriously, and can relate it to the writings of Paglia, Hoff-Somers, and Bloom. And lest anyone think I am being disrespectful to the blog with the Mathers associations, there have been philosophical essays on him which extend far into the areas of deontology and axiology. There is in America even a new "hip hop" epistemology, and Obama is being hailed as our "first hip hop President". Eminem was lauded by the New York Times as a throw-back to the best of American Ginsbergian beat philosophy, and it was asserted that at 26 he had managed to span the genders in a politically sophisticated way which is timely and important. The essays which LeMarcs posted involving questions of gender were to me profound and had much of the Peakian dyad in them. So I in good faith believe myself to be staying on topic, and maintaining full respect for Karl's posting. Just in case when he returns he should be displeased. It is not a case of the mice playing while the cat is away; on the contrary, these discussions honor him above all, to my thinking.

johar said...
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johar said...

Susan Marie,

I can't imagine Karl being displeased with your words whatsoever!

Your deeply philosophical perspective and your ability to apply it so well and thoroughly to a diverse range of areas highlights to me your importance on this blog for the furthering of CTF/CtCW.

You have a wonderful knack of pulling the threads together and weaving stunning patterns which I find inspiring and fascinating.

As I'm reading about male and female brains, it occurs to me that men and women are a dyad, also. Whilst different, still entangled, necessary for balance and evolution. Just a musing.

SM Kovalinsky said...

Well, that is a very good musing, excellent, in fact! I approve heartily. And your appreciation is well taken and respected and returned. Well, KLLM does in fact sometimes become displeased, as he is very perfectionist in his thinking, and I wholly honor him for it, and want him to understand that I write as I do respectfully to all, and to him and to Peake most of all, for having fathered the ideas which give rise to so much serious reflection. I take them as seriously, and even more seriously, than my most honored professors. Thank you, JoJo.

Hurlyburly said...

Very well explained Susan.

Tell you what, marvelous lady that you are. If you want to email me your address i'll send you a copy of my Dissertation on Masculnity in Gangster movies. The entire fourth chapter was dedicated to the effect gangster movies had on rap music and vice versa, you'd possibly find it interesting.

I may take my time with the Eminem Essay though!

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, I would appreciate it, Martin! Please do. And yes, this subject of Eminem is serious enough to let it stew for awhile, I think you and I might co-author it in the future. How does that sound? I may do a philosophical post on Peakian theory, and we will bring Mr. Mathers into the discourse in due time. Send that dissertation, HB; you are a hip hop comrade in arms, and I want to know how you view it all. Thank you.

SM Kovalinsky said...

PS I will email the address now; my son would like a look at it as well.

woodsprite said...

Hurly and Susan-Marie: I challenge you to a feat as yet unachieved. I have very eclectic tastes in music and can appreciate something of most genres but as yet hip-hop defeats me. My two lovely sons, who also have very eclectic tastes musically, have both struggled to persuade me. I aknowledge their wisdom in musical matters and they have introduced me to lots of new musical experiences. Can you enlighten me from a Peakeian perspective?

Just as a name-dropping aside, my youngest son works for ticketmaster and was backstage at the Eminem gig in Glasgow a couple of years ago. I remember him being elated!

SM Kovalinsky said...

Oh, my! Hurly will be green with envy at that story! Well, there is much Peakian and much philosophic about Mr. Eminem. For starters, he is a word-master, a lyrical gemius, and his rap has political and social meaning dispersed throughout. There is energy, and a sort of moral suasion to his hip-hop. He appeared on the American music scene when our discourse was weighed down with political correctness theory and feminism which had divorced itself from classical equity liberalism. He gave a daemon-inspired refutation, and it caught on in a profound way, and had multiple effects , even extending into academic discourse. He was the return of the repressed in all its Freudian glory. He adopted his "Slim Shady" persona after a suicide attempt in which his "Marshall Mathers" self "died" and was "reborn" (eidolonic fusing with daemon and Jamesian in its process). I think Hurly and I will at some point grace this blog with an essay which will be extremely relevant to Peakian theory. Just a bit frazzled right now.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Hurlyburly: I really can't agree with your 'Sociapath' comment.

Johar: Thank you for your comment in response, I agree yes. The persona-animus/anima balance in masculine/feminine psychology is paramount to a mind in search of meaning, for without it one is partisan.

Neither misogyny nor misandry have any place in my mind.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Susan Marie: Thank You for overseeing the blog today during my absence.

Your words, as ever, humble me and I thank you enormously.

Thank you, Dear Lady.

Hurlyburly said...

Karl wrote:
Hurlyburly: I really can't agree with your 'Sociapath' comment.

Well Karl, it's a good job i clearly said i was joking and mocking myself afterwards isn't it!! Come one now, let's not start this again ;0)

Anyone who knows me realises i didn't actualy mean that, i thought it was abundentaly obvious.

Hurlyburly said...

I jokingly mentioned your name sir as you would be a good example of someone who has a good balance of male/female qualities.

Much like me you're blessed with incredible (over)sensitivity!

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Hurlyburly: Obviously!!

And please don't call me "Sir"!

*smiles and hugs*

SM Kovalinsky said...

I like how Hurly calls you, "Sir"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew Giancarlo said...

No . You and Hurlyburly shouldnt do that anymore if he says no. Do like I do instead and call him Professor and it solves evrything.

Karl L Le Marcs said...

Andrew: Thank you Andrew, you are very respectful and I appreciate that very much.

I hope next Sunday's Science Review is as interesting for you as the last two have been.