Wednesday 8 October 2008


Ok, after harassing Karl with some questions about the LHC, I would like to offer some new thoughts on Tony’s Bohmian IMAX Theory.

The purpose of the LHC is to project protons around the circuit at high speed until they crash into each other. When this occurs, scientists are hoping to discover all sorts of amazing stuff. The part that interests me is the measurement of the energy of the protons before and after collision. Now, a proton weighs slightly less than its constituent parts. Therefore, when they collide and explode, one would expect there to be slightly more energy after the collision than before.

However, if there is less energy, one can hypothesize that the expended energy, in the form of types of quarks, has been pushed into another dimension! I’ll leave the science of this to Karl to address!

This got me thinking about the dying body. What if, at the point of death, all the atoms in the human body start decaying and releasing their energy into the universe? Could some of this energy be pushed into another dimension? If so, all the information for that being will be encoded within each energy packet so that they can come together again, rather like some corals I’ve seen mangled in a blender; only to reattach itself to the right piece of coral it was part of before. So, these energy packets would then become part of a new Eidolon (merging with other Eidolonic energy), restarting its existence externally of the previous Eidolon (the original us). So, in effect, the body would die, but some of the energy within each atom of the body would continue in another dimension.

Also, if these energy packets contain the daemonic information from the original Eidolon, this too will become part of the new Eidolon in another dimension. This means that our daemon within our phaneron is quantum entangled with the daemon in the other dimension! This pertains not only to subjective daemonic evolution but objective daemonic evolution as well.

This doesn’t detract from Tony’s theory. We still experience the past life memory playback within our own phaneron. However, the energy that is released into another dimension isn’t enough to recreate a new eidolon that is ‘us’. It will reform with other particles of energy to create another Eidolon. This could explain past life regression tapping into different people as they do contain particles of us from another dimension. It can also explain why some people hear voices and experience neuro atypicality. Their doors of perception are so wide open in this phaneron; they are tapping into the particles of their energy that exist in another dimension.

In his famous study, Raymond Moody interviewed some 150 people who had either actually briefly died (according to Doctors) or had almost died. He concluded from this study that there are NINE experiences common to most people who have had a NDE:
1. Hearing sounds such as buzzing
2. A feeling of peace and painlessness
3. Having an out-of-body experience (OOBE)
4. A feeling of travelling through a tunnel
5. A feeling of rising such as into the heavens
6. Seeing people, often dead relatives
7. Meeting a spiritual being such as the Being of Light
8. Seeing a Past Life Review
9. Feeling a reluctance to return to life

Most of the above experiences can be explained as energy release from the dying atoms.

There was an experiment done to see if the human ‘spirit’ could be weighed. Dying people were weighed before and after death and it was noted that they weighed slightly less. Now, I know this experiment has been widely refuted but could it be viewed another way. Could the slight weight loss after death be attributed to the energy release from the atoms and could the body weigh less after death because the energy has been pushed into another dimension?


Anonymous said...

I think your thesis is a good one Johar and I have been thinking along similar lines recently. I don't agree with the last paragraph though as you seem to be confusing energy (which has no weight) and mass (of which weight is a measure.

Well argued apart from that, though.

Hurlyburly said...

This ties in nicely with the theory and film of "21 Grams". That being the amount of weight lost by the human body at the point of death; the proposed weight of the soul or whatever you wish to call it.

Karl Le Marcs said...

[I apologise for the length of this comment but I feel much should be said]

Johar: When you first spoke to me and showed me your writings on this over a week ago I was quite literally blown away. As everyone knows, I am somewhat a Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Nerd!

FORUM: Large Hadron Collider
[By Karl L Le Marcs]

So I was quite happy to help Jo with her questions on the deeper Quantum Mechanics within the particle collisions, and in particular the work at the CMS (Compact Muon Solenoid) detector (there are four detectors in all in the LHC), which is looking for the constituent parts of the protons (quarks and gluons etc) AFTER the collision to measure energy – the sum of the parts, in this case, being slightly greater than the whole owing to binding energy (but I’m going really deep here and wish to protect you from the joys of such things as the Kaluza-Klein theory but if you are really interested then please look it up or ask me).

Anyway, the experiment is hoping that instead of showing more energy (or equal) after the collision (which both classical and quantum physics suggests) they will find less energy, from which it can be postulated that certain particles have escaped into another dimension (most likely a Muon although some physicists are still banging on about Gravitons (the hypothetical particle of Gravity), but as no Graviton has ever been located in our dimension I personally find it difficult to consider ones in other dimensions, but maybe that’s just me!)

Now, IF this experiment is successful, and most physicists expect it to be so, then the energy after the collision that is not accountable leads to the possibility of particles entering other dimensions which could, as Jo suggests, have interesting implications to the dying body and Consciousness overall.

Woodsprite: Di, yes, I understand your confusion over the energy – mass element of Jo’s final paragraph but if we take some GCSE Physics:

The Weight of an object is the force of Gravity acting on its Mass. It is calculated using the following formula:
Weight(N) = Mass(kg) x G(N/kg or m/s2)
Energy exists in many different forms and can be changed from one form into another. There are 2 main types of energy:
Potential Energy (PE) - some examples are:
Gravitational PE (GPE) - energy stored due to position.
Elastic PE - energy stored in a stretched spring.
Chemical PE - energy stored in a fuel.
Magnetic PE - energy stored in a magnetic field.
Kinetic Energy (KE)
Kinetic Energy is motion/movement energy.
Other forms of energy are heat, light, sound, electrical, and nuclear.
Work is done when energy is changed (transferred) from one form into another.

Now, if we imagine that the CMS and the LHC does show less energy remaining in the constituent parts of the collided Proton than the original Proton possessed before the collision then the hypothesis is that certain particles (Muons, Gravitons, whatever) have leaked into another dimension. Thus, not only energy has decreased but so too has Mass (as elementary matter particles (quarks) all have mass). This leads to a possible argument that if the dying body indeed does begin to dissipate atoms, then potentially certain particles of ourselves could escape into other dimensions (as Jo suggests), which would thus result in the mass of the dying body beginning to decrease and thus reduced mass would have less gravitational pull and thereby reduce weight.
It’s not unfeasible.

Hurlyburly: It is my understanding that only the title of the film '21 grams' has any connection to the experiments on the weight of the dying bodies, isn’t that correct?
Dr Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massechusetts postulated the soul was material and therefore had Mass, ergo a measurable drop in the weight of the deceased would be noted at the moment this essence parted ways with the physical remains. The belief that human beings are possessed of souls which depart their bodies after death and that these souls have detectable physical presences were around well before the 20th Century, but claims that souls have measurable mass which falls within a specific range of weights can be traced to experiments conducted by Dr MacDougall in 1907.

Dr Macdougall, seeking to determine "if psychic functions continue to exist as a separate individuality or personality after the death of brain and body," constructed a special bed in his office "arranged on a light framework built upon very delicately balanced platform beam scales" sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce. He installed upon this bed a succession of six patients in the end stages of terminal illnesses, observed them before, during and after the process of death; and measured any corresponding changes in weight. He then attempted to eliminate as many physiological explanations for the observed results as he could conceive:
Writing in a journal of American Medicine, Dr. MacDougall told of one patient who was dying of tuberculosis. He wrote: "He lost weight slowly at the rate of one ounce per hour due to evaporation of moisture in respiration and evaporation of sweat. At the end of the three hours and forty minutes, he expired and suddenly coincident with death the beam end (of the scale) dropped with an audible stroke"

He said the loss was about three-fourths of an ounce, or just over 21 grams.

In Summary:
The primary role of the LHC is to locate the only remaining part of the Standard Model of Particle Physics yet to be detected: The Higgs Boson and Higgs Field. This is asserted to be the "God Particle" which imbues all other elementary particles with Mass. Some physicists are working to support String Theory; this attempts to tie up the loose ends in the Standard Model by explaining all the fundamental particles and forces (including gravity) in a unified framework.
Underlying string theory is the radical idea that fundamental particles are not really like points or dots, but rather small loops of vibrating strings. All the different particles and forces are just different oscillation modes of a unique type of string. Bizarrely, the theory also implies that besides the familiar three–dimensional world and the fourth dimension of time, there are six additional spatial dimensions! These extra dimensions are apparently 'curled up' so small that we do not see them.
Some string theorists have taken this idea further to explain a mystery of gravity that has perplexed physicists for some time – why is gravity so much weaker than the other fundamental forces? Why do we need objects the size of planets in order to feel its force when we can experience the electromagnetic force with just a small magnet? And if gravity’s quantum carrier, the graviton, exists, how can we find it? The idea is that we do not feel gravity’s full effect in the everyday world. Gravity may appear weak only because its force is being shared with other spatial dimensions but again, I struggle with this:

BLOG: What On Earth Is Wrong With Gravity?
[By Karl L Le Marcs]

BLOG: Quantum Gravity
[By Karl L Le Marcs]

One option would be to find evidence of another host of particles that can only exist if there are more dimensions. Theories that postulate these extra dimensions predict that, like an atom having a low energy ground state and then more energetic states, there must be heavier versions of standard particles recurring at higher and higher energies as they navigate smaller dimensions. These have been called Kaluza-Klein recurrences and would have exactly the same properties as standard particles (and so be visible to a detector) but at a greater mass. If CMS were to find a Z-like particle (the Z boson being one of the carriers of the electroweak force) at 2 TeV (TerraElectronVolt) for instance, this might suggest the presence of extra dimensions. Such heavy particles wouldn't have been seen at lower energies.

Two of the most fundamental laws of physics are that momentum and energy 'are conserved'. In other words, the total momentum and energy before a collision is equal to the total momentum and energy after (ignoring Binding Energy within the Proton). So if we add these up in all the observed particles emerging from a collision and it does not equal the amount in the original particles, there must be a missing particle that carried away the momentum and energy.
This is why the detector must be as hermetic as possible, that is, it must be able to catch, to the extent possible, every particle emerging from the collisions, so we can deduce that particles have genuinely disappeared, and have not just been missed by the detector.

As I state in my CtCw; all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, our bodies are made from atoms, themselves made from quarks and leptons, gluons and all manner of weird quantum particles. The matter particles all have mass and are all (within String Theory) vibrating packets of energy. Thus particles escaping to other dimensions is a distinct possibility and from this, Jo’s theory is well worth considering in the Daemonic Evolution and my own Evolution of Consciousness.

Tremendous work JoJo, I take enormous pride in knowing you've developed this idea through talking to me and bombarding me with questions.

Thank You Jo, and thank you to anyone who has read all my comment!

Johar said...

Di, Thanks for the feedback. I see your point with the last paragraph. I used this experiment as an example as I wondered if there could, in some way, be an effect on the body after death by the release of the energy within the atoms. HOW this could be, I wasn't sure and was looking for ideas from fellow bloggers.

WOW, Karl, Thank you for such a comprehensive reply. I appreciate your patience and suport as I developed this idea and tested the theory out on you!

Karl Le Marcs said...

Johar: *giggles*
Yes, I did get a bit carried away didn't I? It was an insomniacal hypergraphic night that did it!!
Always my pleasure to help JoJo.

It will be interesting to see what others think so the Dark Professor can go for a nice red wine and a lie down.

Anonymous said...

Jo: I replied to your post just before I went to bed and my response seems unfairly curt! I am always amazed by your ability to frame your ideas in a totally coherent and well thought out manner. It is also uncanny that you manage to encapsulate my own ponderings - and always more rigourously than I can.

Karl: Thanks for your expanding the ideas and sharing some more of your CtCW concepts. As you know, I am all too eager to find out more and I am delighted to have the benefit of your insomnia driven Hyper-graphia!

I will need several readings of this for me to thoroughly absorb the full content. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm.

Karl Le Marcs said...

Woodsprite: Thank You, Di.
You want to see the unedited, unexpurgated version of my reply comment!
Or maybe you don't!
Enjoy the re-reading Di!

Johar said...

Di, Awwww, bless you for expanding on your original comment. It gave me something to chew over, so thanks. I think Karl may have given a possible explanation, I'll read his comments again for the
4th time and see if I can find it!!! LOL

Karl Le Marcs said...

Johar: How Rude!
*harrumphs and winks*
(which isn't easy to do)

*grabs diamante encrusted mortarboard and flounces off*

Johar said...

Karl, You know I jest, your comments were FAB!

I sincerely hope Di catches you on film *harrumphing and winking* on Saturday, now that would be a picture!!! LOL

*returns soggy diamante encrusted mortarboard to Karl after he drops it in a cat bowl that escaped previous mention*

Karl Le Marcs said...

Johar: Ta JoJo!
Now, let's see what everyone else has to say about these ponderances of yours..................

Johar said...

Karl, Yes, apologies, wandered a bit there!

Other people say stuff now.....

Aloha Gary said...


couldn't help noticing that Karl was severely bombarded by Johar, which in this context makes her an LKC - Large Karl Collider!!
*listens for many groans around the world*

...and Karl, as you were bombarded, did your energy rise or fall? *ducks as saw tooth edge of diamante mortar skates through the air*

more sensible comment to follow!

Aloha Gary said...

Johar's original post states: "What if, at the point of death, all the atoms in the human body start decaying and releasing their energy into the universe? Could some of this energy be pushed into another dimension?"

Quite agree that the body begins decaying the instant the soul 'changes address' as the Hawaiians call it, because the only thing holding the body together is the immense intention of the focused will, although whether this is a function of the Eidolon, Daemon or Subconscious (which I would add to the dyad theory of Mr Peake) is an interesting question?

no doubt ITLADers (or are we now DAEMONITES?) will have views on this?

Just to add a possible Shamanic view of the 'death' process is that we very definitely move between dimensions, away from this prime physical material plane, and through the underworld of our life experience, eg, meeting the ferryman in Greek world, or similar crossing into the happy lands of Valhalla if I may mix my mythologies?

I believe this may be a very common belief among ancient and first peoples but will need to check with my sources!

fascinating post, thank you all


Karl Le Marcs said...

Aloha Gary: "Large Karl Collider!!"


We should all get T-Shirts proclaiming such for the Consciousness Weekend!

Or not!

Interesting comments regarding the Hawaiian 'changes address' re the soul; you must tell me more over a fine Chablis or somesuch on Saturday.

And most people mix metaphors my friend, trust you to mix mythologies!

Fabulous mate, see you anon!!

Aloha Gary said...

From Karl's mega and wonderful comment above:

"Two of the most fundamental laws of physics are that momentum and energy 'are conserved'....So if we add these up in all the observed particles emerging from a collision and it does not equal the amount in the original particles, there must be a missing particle that carried away the momentum and energy. "

May I also hypothesise

OR these theories could well be, erm, WRONG!!

Just because a theory has been around a long time, doesn't make it infallible. eg, Einstein's enhancements of what up to then had been unassailable 'truths'.

May I refer you to the First Law of Project Management "The difference between practice and theory is that in theory there is no difference between practice and theory, but in practice there always is".

I shall watch with huge amusement when the results come in and many long held theories have to be suddenly glossed over or quietly shelved, and I predict there will be much tearing of beards and gnashing of teeth within the ivory towers of academia!

We so limit our understanding of our amazing selves and this fabulous universe by only allowing to be true what our technology can 'prove'.

If more people would rely on their own experience rather than what other people tell them is 'true', there would be a lot less stress (and peace) in the world.

*gets off high horse, and adjusts stetson*


Aloha Gary said...

Methinks 'Tony and the Daemonites' has a nice kind of 60s Phil Spectre ring to it?

Maybe on the back of the tee shirts we can have TP world tour featuring Tony's talk dates?

Please forgive the silly season, this is what too much sobriety does!


Karl Le Marcs said...

Aloha Gary: Ah! But such is the Scientific Method old bean!

"Truth is sought for its own sake. And those who are engaged upon the quest for anything for its own sake are not interested in other things. Finding the truth is difficult, and the road to it is rough."
Ibn al-Haytham (965-1039)

CD...M said...

Johar: In March 2006 I was present with my mother when she died. Mom was able to be at home through her last weeks, supported by family and our local at home paliative care program. Slipping into a coma Saturday evening, mom died early Monday morning. I was fortunate enough to be there; the house was in order; other family had left and I was there with the palliative care nurse. Sitting in my trademark shorts and a T-shirt, after a shower, I was seated on mom's bed holding her hand and telling the palliative care nurse a story about attending a Maori funeral, in New Zealand.

One thing I noticed, mom's shallow breathing growing quieter over time, was an energy felt when placing my hand on the top of mom's head. It was a coursing strong, "electrical" energy, that seemed very concentrated there.

To the extent such an energy, electrical or electromagnetic, or whatever it might have been, would no longer have been there, after her death, perhaps there might have been a measurable change (certainly in energy, if not in mass) as a result of death (the death I was observing at least) occuring.

I wonder if our life force, i.e., that which animates our bodies, if you like, actually lifts us up in some way (literally), such that if the life force is not present, the "dead weight" that results, is heavier.

All interesting stuff, in any event.

Johar said...

Gary, Thanks for your comments. Just to clarify, are you calling ME a Large Karl Collider or is it Large Karl with whom I collide? *wink*

Simply love the tern 'soul's change of address', a wonderful picture to imagine and Daemonite is another excellent term to add to the ITLADian glossary.

Cam, Thank you for sharing your story with us. Interesting that you actually felt the energy emanating from your Mother. It certainly makes you wonder what happens to the 'life force'after death, doesn't it? A very good idea, thanks.

CD...M said...

Aloha Gary wrote:

"Quite agree that the body begins decaying the instant the soul 'changes address' as the Hawaiians call it, because the only thing holding the body together is the immense intention of the focused will, although whether this is a function of the Eidolon, Daemon or Subconscious (which I would add to the dyad theory of Mr Peake) is an interesting question?"

Gary: Aloha !

The CTF Eidolon / Daemon dyad, does it not take place within the context of our Subjective Consciousness ("Sub", in "Subconscious", then, being short for "Subjective"?).

Consciousness itself, i.e., that which IS behind our Subjective Consciousness, i.e., from or within which our subjectivity arises, this Consciousness, which appears to be a given, in many ways, but which little might be "known" about, without subjectivity, is that something we are Un-Conscious about ?

SM: Gary writes, "holding the body together is the immense intention of the focused will".

No wonder philosophers devote so much attention to "Will" !

Karl Le Marcs said...

Cam: Thank You for relaying this personal story to support JoJo's thesis. I find it very pertinent (except for the electromagnetic consciousness implication), but your final paragraph of your first comment confuses me. You said "I wonder if our life force, i.e., that which animates our bodies, if you like, actually lifts us up in some way (literally), such that if the life force is not present, the "dead weight" that results, is heavier."
Why would it be heavier Cam>

Johar: ooooh you cheeky.....
Large Karl indeed!!
*flounces off heavily*

Cam (2): I've addressed your "Sub"Consciousness comments in your FORUM post on the same subject.

CD...M said...

I wrote above: "I wonder if our life force, i.e., that which animates our bodies, if you like, actually lifts us up in some way (literally), such that if the life force is not present, the "dead weight" that results, is heavier."

Karl: Yes, that would be paradoxical, I know. Energy in the body, would be gone, presumably resulting in a reduction in weight, or perhaps mass.

My comment, I think, postulates the loss of the puppeter, the puppet strings, perhaps, now being cut, if the idea of such things fit into any ideas, anywhere.

Odd thinking on my part, perhaps.

That or being flabergasted at the weight of someone who might be dead asleep ( or dead drunk ) so they offer no assistance, in their movement.

As for the feeling of the energy, thru my hand, felt when placing my hand on mom's head, no, it wasn't so much sensing a magnetic field, if electromagnetic fields feel like what is experienced when bringing magnets together; more a coursing, intense electrical field or charge, or perhaps concentration, i.e., of the energy in mom's nervous system.

I may be sensitive to those types of energies, however. I find myself existing as a "field" of energy, of sorts, at times, and more often than not, or existing or experiencing a current of electrical activity, at least in my body; I don't know what to make of it; I feel my body to be like a grid; an electrical, or electromagnetic, grid, often; and I'm not sure, either, if the grid is being energized or depleted, in the course of things.

I'm not sure where the energy is flowing from, nor if it may also be flowing elsewhere, i.e., out of the "grid" in some fashion; perhaps it is simply a closed circuit, within my nervous system; I wonder if it can surge, based on my own "will", or activated intent; at times, I feel an actual energy depletion, an energy exhaustion, of sorts; it can be hard to rise above the exhaustion, to do things in the midst of that circumstance.

Perhaps the effects of stress, as Espiralli suggested, at one point.

I'm not sure about that, though.

It's simply a mystery, one which I've not had too many insights about, to date. Medical tests done; brain cat scan; brain MRI; haven't offered any explanations.

I'm wondering if it might trace back to that one TLE like event I had when I was 26 or 27, albeit I don't think I could trace it back that far, specifically.

That said, it's something that has increased, but very gradually, in intensity, over the years.

I'm not even sure how to describe it very well. I've just done my best, to do that.

Anthony Peake said...


My apologies for not replying sooner to your outstanding post. The last week has been somewhat busy with a good deal of travelling across the UK.

I have now had time to digest exactly what you are suggesting and it is very interesting. Of course, as KLLM rightly says, the whole idea that the body looses weight at the point of death was never proven conclusively (a very interesting account of MacDougall's experiments can be found in Mary Roach's excellent book "Six Feet Over").

When I first came across MacDougall's work is was confused by his logic. If, as a practicing Christian, MacDougall believed in the soul then he would also believe that the soul is not material but spirit. As such it cannot possibly have any form of weight or mass. Therefore his 'proof' of the soul's existence did nothing of the sort!

However your suggestion is far more 'materialistic' and you are in no way confined by the restrictions that MacDougall placed upon himself.

I am delighted to see that this posting received the number of comments that it has.

Karl Le Marcs said...

Cam: Yes, thank you for clearing up the paradoxical element within your comment.

Tony: Yes, I would agree and feel more thought and analysis should be given the the central thesis within JoJo's theory here rather than the "soul weight" element which she only used as an allegorical device.
As you rightly say, Jo's theory here is far more materialistic and certainly worthy of deeper consideration, especially IF or WHEN the LHC produces experimental data of "escaping" energy.

Johar said...

Thanks for your feedback, Tony.

I am fascinated to know the outcome of the LHC experiment when it happens as it may add weight, (LOL, pun not intended!)to my thoery.
I am extremely interested in the idea of multiverses and how the little bits of stuff (sorry to be so scientific!) inside the atom could be disappearing into different dimensions. If so, the possibility of our own atoms doing the same thing seems like a real possibility.