It’s Sunday again! And so, here beginneth the lesson!This is my regular round-up of the week’s most ITLADic Scientific News for everyone to enjoy reading through and comment upon, with your thoughts, interpretations and questions.
The hardest part of compiling this week’s Top 5 was deciding what to leave out! I may link to some of the other stories that have not made it into the post in my comments during the day.
Please find below the links to a summary of this week’s Top 5 items.
1. Can A Robot, An Insect Or God Be Aware?
2. Targeting Epilepsy At Source
3. Why It's Hard To Say Goodbye
4. How Multi-Touch Screens Could Change The Way We Interact
5. Decision-Making, Risk-Taking Similar In Bees And Humans
And this would have been in the top 5 but given its theological aspect it isn’t specifically ITLADic but it would be interesting to get everyone’s thoughts on it:
> Sacred Science: Using Faith To Explain Anomalies In Physics <
It’s been SUCH a busy week for Science News that I also include the following from many aspects of research.Some of these are fairly specialised but given the diversity of people here I’m sure there will be something of interest for everyone.
Evolutionary Psychology:
> The Importance Of Being Frightened <
Evolution:
> Fossil Fish Reveals Complex Evolution <
Cosmology:
> Galaxy Map Hints At Fractal Universe <
Language:
> How Switching Language Can Change Your Personality <
> Are You A Different Person When You Speak A Different Language? <
Now, these next few articles are not easy reading but are very important to anyone interested in the deeper Philosophical and Quantum elements of ITLAD:
Quantum Physics and Cosmology:
> Stephen Hawking's Explosive New Theory <
> Hawking 'Close' To Explaining Universe's Inflation <
> Using Causality To Solve The Puzzle Of Quantum Spacetime <
Philosophy-Science:
> God Is A Corporation? <
And finally, one last optical illusion relating to left-right brain thinking.Which way do the eyes look to you?
> Cool Visual Illusions: The 'Ghostly Gaze' Illusion <
(visit the link and try the different ways of viewing the face, see if it changes your initial observation)
I will be available most of Sunday to answer any questions you have on these articles and to discuss the implications within ITLADic Philosophy.
I will place my own interpretation of the articles throughout the day in the comments section.
I hope we can generate as interesting a discussion as we have on previous Sundays, and if you haven’t been involved before then you are more than welcome to add your thoughts.
If you missed the previous Top 5s then click here (for Week 1) and for last week’s click here
.
Happy Sunday Reading, and please place your opinions, questions and observations in the comments section for all to discuss.
.
A Dark Philosopher
Karl L Le Marcs
176 comments:
Everyone: I also have a question for you all.
A blogger has emailed me asking if I could produce an audio file of me reading some of the week’s most ITLADic Science News, which could be downloaded each week.
Can I ask everyone if you think this would be useful?
Let me know during your comments.
Thank You.
Appealing to everyone's rep system. Some people concentrate better when they are listening and some when they are reading so YES it would be useful!
Johar: Thanks JoJo!
That would assist the Visual and Auditory types, now how could I assist the Kinaesthetics???
BLIMEY!!!
Hope you enjoy some of the articles and will leave your usual incisive comments.
ps, In the optical illusion I can make the girl look both ways and also crossed eyed! Probably says a LOT about me!
*smile*
Oh no!!!!I have only read the first Lesson re Robots etc. and now my worst fears are realised!!I have always ascribed feelings to inanimate objects as I really believe at some level they*know* whether they are loved or hated... I no longer care what people think of me... Prisoners have befriended rats or beetles, all respond to human kindness,I have read accounts of rhinos or giraffes befriending kind souls in Africa.. and I am sure true psychics would know if a loved toy was either that or despised... some emotion must be imbued into it .. time will tell but probably not yet.. at least we have Karl to allow us to be pre-thinkers.. and yes!! it would be great to have you read aloud, so, as you say ,all types are catered for!! On to the next lesson... breathtaking work again Karl!!!
Jesamyn.
Jesamyn: Hi Jez.
Yes, I agree re article #1 ("Can A Robot, An Insect Or God Be Aware?) that emotion and residual energies surely should affect those people and things around us, either on a consciousness level or psychologically.
And I personally respond to your kindness.
*smile*
Article #1
Entity - Something that has a distinct, seperate existence.
Humans can concede that a thing exists but are not willing to ascribe this 'thing' the same subjective feelings we are capable of.
Is it the unconscious 'knowing' that we are at the centre of our own subjective experience?
We are the only beings on the planet that have higher levels of awareness and thus consciousness.
Are we born with the preexisting knowledge from the collective unconscious that we, the observer, are what makes it all real?
I think we are and it is this fundamental truth that EVERYONE should know, that by their very existence they are creating a universe!
Johar: re article #1
Humanity's problem is that it anthropomorphises everything from inanimate objects to pets and to GOD!
I agree with the 'unconscious knowing' part of you interpretation very much (as you'd expect, given my own theory)
I think the mind/matter schism has a middle ground whereby all matter has a degree of consciousness (knowing) and all mind has a degree of matter.
Thanks JoJo, I'm sure your comments will help others in their reading.
I agree with your comment about anthropomorphising everything but it's interesting to see in the article that on closer inspection we don't really believe these things have the same subjective experience as ourselves. We are not willing to attribute feelings to these entities, although we do project our own feelings onto them.
Johar: Yes, precisely what a Psychologist would call 'Transference'.
And of course, if everything you are currently experiencing is only happening in your Bohmian IMAX then EVERYTHING is your construction and thus would have certain of your attributes imbued within them!!
Makes ya think don't it???
*smile*
Article #2
"The downside is we have to make a hole in someone's head"
Understatement of the day!
I like the idea that a drug can be delivered in much smaller dosages, thus reducing side effects significantly, and reduce debilitating seizures. However, I have to wonder what else it might be interfering with in the process.
The same with the electrical stimulation for Parkinson's patients - beneficial for this progressive, neurological condition but it is a fine balance between good results and what may be lost in the process.
I'm interested in this signal processing that detects when a seizure will occur, I see other applications for this other than knowing when to deliver the anti convulsant drug.
Johar: "The downside is we have to make a hole in someone's head"
Understatement of the day!"
Ha!! I thought you (and the other Nursing related bloggers) would pick up on that!
Trepanation rules ok!!
And yes, I agree that the signal processing to detect a seizure in very interesting, especially if we look specifically at Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and the ITLADic connotations.
Cave paintings from Neolithic times onwards indicate that people believed the practice of trepanation would cure epileptic seizures, migraines, and mental disorders.
Look how far we've come - still drilling!
Johar: Maybe what they were trying to release was The Daemon!
Karl: You've done it again! Another fascinating selection of articles to keep us thinking. Thank you for your time and effort.
Johar has said everything I would have said about the first 2 articles. *salutes Johar*
#3: This is one of those "isn't that obvious" experiments. It seems intuitive that grief combines a recollection of good feelings and associations with a sense of mental pain. It's reassuring to have empirical evidence for that and it was a well thought out experiment to show it.
#4: Yet another step towards the futuristic world of science fiction! This reminded me of the three dimensional computer screen used by Tom Cruise in Minority Report. Amazing!
#5: The whole psychology of risk taking and decision making is fascinating. The more it is possible to understand apparently unconscious decisions the more easily we can be manipulated by marketing etc. (Derren Brown seems to use this type of technique in his act all the time.)
From an ITLAD perspective, this demonstrates an area where the Daemon may have influence - nudging the Eidolon away from disadvantageous decisions made on this sort of basic statistical probability.
Woodsprite: Welcome Di, and thank you for your kind words.
article #3 Sometimes the best experiments are the ones that bring empirical evidence to what was presumed beforehand and yes, this is a good example. It was interesting to me to read about the 'pleasure centre' neuronal activity during grief as I wondered if that could be seen as Daemonic activity knowing that death has only occurred in your subjective phaneron and that objectively their life continues.
article #4 Fun isn't it? If you take this article together with the "Second Life" article from Week 1, and the "Silent Mind" and "Computer Human Sight" articles from last week, you can start to get a true idea of what existence within a Bohmian IMAX, multi sensory, multi dimensional, hollographic world is like. Technology mirroring life again!
article #5 I agree yes, and if you include Daemonic guidance into the article then what is actually a RISK? If The Daemon knows the outcome then the risk has been removed (unconsciously) although the Eidolon still feels it (consciously)
*waves at Derren*
Excellent interpretations of the articles Di.
EVERYONE: Which way are the girl's eyes facing for you?????
Karl: It aall depends how you look at it. Mostly to the left but when it's a little image, the opposite.
I loved the two girls image - the swop over is dramatic!
Woodsprite: Interesting.
If you visit the link and watch the video of the image shrinking, keep attention on one eye ball (looking to left) and you should(!) find that it stays looking left even when small.
I did it a few times and (like the dancing girl from a couple of weeks ago) I was then able to see her looking both left AND right PLUS go cross eyes, which left me in much a similar state!!
*giggle*
Let us know if your observation of where she is looking changes by trying the above.
The article on sacred science sort of fits in with the way I've always looked at science and theology. I've never been able to recognise a tension between the two concepts because to me God is a term to describe the whole amazing wonder of the Universe - the notion that there is a sense to everything. As I learn more about it the wonder increases rather than decreases. Maybe that's because I don't visualise an anthropomorphic Godhead who created everything in a week.
Science can be "awesome" in the literal sense.
Karl: Spooky! *chuckles*
We refuse to be fooled by these illusions!
Woodsprite: Yes, Di. That's why I wanted to include it in the post but I had to exclude it from the Top 5.
Science and Theology (like most things) have an interconnecting part with the Venn Diagram of their mutual areas of interest.
This is where ITLAD/CTF and my theories sit, and is also why Susan Marie (who will be here shortly) is keen for Tony and I to try and build a bridge in US Culture between Science and Spiritualism.
Again, this links back to what I said to Johar earlier in relation to article #1:
"Humanity's problem is that it anthropomorphises everything from inanimate objects to pets and to GOD!"
I'm glad that my little idea for this Sunday Science Service, as you wonderfully termed it a couple of weeks ago, is helping being some of the really philosophical elements of Science to everyone.
Woodsprite: "Karl: Spooky! *chuckles*
We refuse to be fooled by these illusions!"
*smiles*
Now, if you take the Left-Right/Daemon-Eidolon brain idea from the illusion to the articles I included under Language, I hope you will make the connection that I did relating to shift in consciousness.
Karl: It certainly works for me. It provides the grit in the oyster shell that over the week sometimes causes a pearl!
I, for one, mull things over that start out on this blog. At the moment I'm finding out about social effects on brain development after Roshni's post got me thinking about karma and attachment theory. (I'll post something when it comes together)
Woodsprite: Thank You.
That pretty much sums up my reasons for doing this!
Given your interests in the Sociological Neurology you may be interested in this article from the week that didn't make it onto my full post:
Neuroscientists Discover A Sense Of Adventure
Good morning Professor Lemarcs I have read #2 about epilepsy and want to read the one about evolutionery psychology.I wnat to read them all!I did suffer seizures as a littleboy and kno t how bad the affects of meds can be.They rewired my brain i think.Myn mother said William Blake thanked god for his epilepsy and Kierkefgaard was one too. I wonder if the daemonic benefits are more then the risks of seizures?thankyou.
Andrew: Good Morning my friend.
*dofs Diamante encrusted mortarboard*
Your comments on re-wiring the brain are VERY interesting when we consider Daemonically guided recurrences!
The list of remarkable people who lived with TLE (and similar conditions) reads like a veritable "Who's Who" of Culture and Thought.
Fantastic contribution Andrew, thank you. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Evolutionary Psychology article and any others during the day.
These certainly all look to be fascinating articles, and much fodder for speaking of the dyad and its connection to human cognitive psychology. I will have to take time with the reading of them; I have gone through #2 with my son, but found that the link of the one to evolutionary psychology does not seem to be working. I will post more as I read; thank you, KLLM, for finding such excellent material, and for your understanding of its manifold connections to CTF theory.
Addendum: I can think of nothing more beautifully inspiring than to hear LeMarcs read scientific theory to his bloggers. I say do it; do it , and yes, please do grace us with that.
As disappointed and frustrated as I am to not be able to link to the evolutionary psychology article, I have read the one on language and its effects on personality and psychology. I know in my own study of 2 years of classical Latin, that it increased my ability to philosophize monumentally, and also gave me a perspective which had been lacking prior; the feeling of being infused with and connected to the ancients. Most interesting article. Thank you so much.
Susan Marie: Ahh Susan Marie, fantastic to have you here.
Thank you for pointing out the error on the Evolutionary Psychology link. I have now rectified the error and the link is now working:
The Importance Of Being Frightened
And thank you for your kind words regarding my efforts here and towards the Audio idea.
Oh, Andrew and I really appreciate the one on Kaufmann's emergent universe and the shift from reductionism to "sacred science": this is a trend picking up pace in the US, and why I felt the urgency I did regarding 2 British Midwives. The time is now, to take what is out of joint and askew, and make straight. And how much of Peakian theory and Lemarcsian ideas can be applies precisely here, to this cause!
Susan Marie: re Language article, yes I agree and considering the conversation between Woodsprite and myself earlier, your comments are very apt.
Thank you for fixing that link. And how much this resonates with James, in that he believed facial expressions to actually CAUSE the emotions they denoted, and to serve to strengthen tendencies in the human brain while laying down the tracks of memory. And Darwin certainly is taking a beating over here, in a way I had not anticipated a few years ago. Some of it is scientific, some faith based and spiritual, yet is is the former and not the latter which is doing him in, at least in the US.
Karl: Thanks for the neuroscience link. I found it interesting. The same area of the brain that is linked to risk taking seems to show changes in adolescence. This can be seen as advantageous in becoming independent but also means that adolescence becomes a most dangerous time for accidents and even death.
Thanks for sorting out the fear link too. I was so carried away rabbiting that I forgot to let you know it wasn't working. Thank goodness we have Susan-Marie!
The ITLADian sunday school is following the rising sun... Oklahoma now awake! I'm excited to say I have the day off from all obligations and look forward to a dip in the brain-pool!
*splish-Splash*
Karrrl, I'm sure at least one read article a week, perhaps the one you feel is most engaging, would be wonderful to hear!
Susan Marie: My pleasure!
I agree with your Jamesian interpretation yes. In one of my other roles in my Gestalt Existentialism, I deal within this area of psychology often.
Woodsprite: Excellent, I thought you might. I fully agree yes, and be identifying these areas of activity it is also interesting to consider The Daemon and its location in the brain (along with all memory of course)
Robin: Hello to the Oklahoma State!
Oh how wonderful it will be to have you thrashing around in the ITLADic pool today.
And thank you for your comments on the Audio idea. I shall see what I can do.
*smile*
Susan Marie: Just seen this comment from you -
"Oh, Andrew and I really appreciate the one on Kaufmann's emergent universe and the shift from reductionism to "sacred science": this is a trend picking up pace in the US, and why I felt the urgency I did regarding 2 British Midwives. The time is now, to take what is out of joint and askew, and make straight. And how much of Peakian theory and Lemarcsian ideas can be applies precisely here, to this cause!"
I'm glad you appreciated the Sacred Science article, YES I can fully see this is fitting with your "Two British Midwives" article, and I said something similar to Woodsprite here earlier today.
Thank You
Re: Evolutionary Psychology: I have always found the area of body language fascinating. A lot of our expressive behaviour is common across cultures, suggesting it is innate, for example, the eyebrow flash when we greet someone we know. Other signals have different meanings in different cultures, such as handshakes. It's interesting to look at what is happening on the physiological level for these instinctive responses. I'm sure there must be a degree of overlap between acting out the physical expression of an emotion and production of the physiological responses. I have a friend whose daughter is an actress who had a paart on very populr TV soap. She said her daughter was emotionally and physically exhausted after playing out a story line where she had to cry intensely. With repeated takes of the same actions she was totally wiped out. This supports the idea that the physical expression of an emotion can produce the emotion itself.
Waiting on the caffeine to kick in, I skipped to the optical illusion. I see her gaze move from left to crossed for a fraction of a second and then back to left. Thanks to myopia (of the eyes, not the mind) I can't make out the pupils from afar so the eyes are blank in the smaller image.
Woodsprite: Evolutionary Psychology, yes, and if you find body language fascinating I must let you hear some of my own Radio appearances on that very subject!!
*smile*
Cultural body language and nuance is fascinating, especially when it replicates across two different disparate and unconnected cultures (convergent evolution)
Physical expression of an emotion can certainly produce the psychological sensation of that emotion yes.
Robin: Yeah, I need a pick me up too!!
*phew*
Optical Illusion, well the eyes always have it Robin, and over time, as I was discussing with Woodsprite earlier, by switching what I am thinking about (ie, logical to constructive thought) I can switch her gaze quite easily (although I've never had the blank eyes image that you so devilishly describe)
*smile*
Karl: "identifying these areas of activity it is also interesting to consider The Daemon and its location in the brain (along with all memory of course)"
Exactly, this would be an area of life where the daemon's influence would be critical. And thinking about this developmentally, psychologists woud argue that a good parent imposes limits and boundaries so tht the child eventually learns to regulate their behaviour for themselves. In the same way, attending to the daemon's guidance should enable the eidolon to learn for itself and thus gain wisdom.
About the facial expressions:
My chihuahua cocked her head and looked at me in a curious way as I tried these faces.
The physiologic response to mimicking them is interesting.
Woodsprite: Thank You.
Very well interpreted Di, I completely agree. I see this area as a new region to take ITLAD into (with Tony's agreement of course), that being Developmental Psychology and Consciousness.
And according to Freud, surely Daemonic Guidance can be equated with the SuperEgo!!!
Karl...
You should make those radio show clips available for download!
I did read evolutioniry psychology and the one on Kauffman and I agree with my mother on both.I know a shift from the malignant reductionist theory is sure needed inpsychiatrey too and the sacred science is the way to stop all That is why she writes on you and Tony Peake Nietzsches hatred for all traitors to sciencewas a holy hatred and he did have sacred in his gay science! but he didnt like the way they had evolved there. I like what you said about nuance ansd crossculture and mom says you teach classes on bodylanguage?I knoe James cared alot about expression and how it affects outword.From brain to culture and back again andProfessor I want to hear the audio very much! and convergent evolution that is sociology.Are you a sociologist like HurlyBurly and Tony Peak?I took Dr. Jaworski intro to soc at Fairleigh and he wrote abook in New york. thankyou
Karl: "And according to Freud, surely Daemonic Guidance can be equated with the SuperEgo!!!"
That's certinly how I've been thinking of it.
Robin: *giggles at imagery of you gurning to your chihuahua*
I copy my cat all the time (except when he's washing those bits!!)
He often then tilts his head and looks inquisitively at me.
He copies my yawns too.
*smile*
Robin: "Karl...
You should make those radio show clips available for download!"
Leave it with me, I will see what I can do.
Thank You.
Andrew: Superb interpretation Andrew, yes. I totally agree that the reductionists are in need of a paradigm shift which I think the interconnection of ITLAD and my CtCw theory can bring.
I also love the Nietzschean anaology Andrew, you are certainly your dear Mother's son and you amaze me with your knowledge and concise opinions.
Yes, I do teach Body Language and similar psychology and I know you would be interested in that also.
I shall get some more Audio sorted for you personally Andrew.
I am not a Sociologist no, more of a Psychologist and Philosopher with a Scientific angle and a deep literary base. Between you and I, I think Sociology is just collective Psychology but that may be a bit contentious to the Sociological ones here so keep it quiet! *shhhh*
Some are leaders and some are sheep!!
*smile*
Wonderful comment Andrew, your Prof thanks you!
*bows respectfully*
Woodsprite: Excellent!
It's always nice to find out that I am not alone in thinking these things that I do!!
*smile*
Karl: I'm delighted that you teach Body Language - yet another area of interest we have in common (as my bookshelves would testify!)
I am in agreement with my son, that the Kaufmann essay on the shift from reductionism to a sacred science may also be apllied in the domain of psychiatric science. I have said previously that you, KLLM, could be most impactful if you would write further in this area, especially bringing daemonic theory and the Peakian dyad into play. You and Tony have truly liberal and generous minds as regards "mental illness"; that the Daemonic bolsters this compassion and lends aristocratic epistemic privilege to it is sublime.
Woodsprite: Ah! There are many, many sides to my Gestalt Existentialism Di!
I'm sure there are even more areas that would surprise you!
ps, I am the BEST person to sit people-watching with!!!
(over a few ales obviously)
*smile*
I know you to be a leader and not with the sheep professor!
Susan Marie Yes, exactly!
I think, of all the 'mind' sciences, Psychiatry is the one that is being left behind and is in most need of a shift in fundamental ideology.
Psychoanalytically, we can view Freud's SuperEgo Daemonically and this the Id becomes the Eidolon. The Ego (for those that have one) remains the projection of the Eidolonic Id towards the Daemonic SuperEgo.
I fully intend to write further in this area, and already do (under two other pseudonyms)
I have worked within and written on Mental Health for several years and the epistenic privilege within it should be heard by all.
Thank You
Karl: "ps, I am the BEST person to sit people-watching with!!!
(over a few ales obviously)
*smile*"
*gigles* - sounds like we would make a formidable people watching team! Olympic standard!
Andrew: Thank you my friend.
I am far too inquisitive and keen to explore new ideas to ever be a follower.
I'd be the sheep that keeps wandering off looking at the cows with an intrigued expression.
*smiles*
Woodsprite: As Tony will tell you, I am always looking for ways for people to actually pay me to loll about in pubs, so I shall add this suggestion to my list.
Thank you
*cheers*
Karl: Pub lolling - a fine occupation for a man of letters.
* nod of approval*
Woodsprite: I couldn't agree more if I tried all day!
*smile*
And there are people who would pay to observe you lolling in a pub. Ask all Wittgensteinians and free thinkers.
hi karl..thanx again fo r putting up this wonderful collection!
article 1#..in india we beleive in vastushastra..Vaastu Shastra deals with various aspects of designing and building living environments that are in harmony with the physical and metaphysical forces. Building practices based on limited interpretations of these principles are still sustained in parts of India. Though Vastu is conceptually similar to Feng Shui in that it also tries to harmonize the flow of energy (Also called life-force, and Prana in Sanskrit, similar to Chi in Chinese) through the house, it differs in the details, such as the exact directions in which various objects, rooms, materials etc are to be placed.
In india people believe that esp homes have feelings and the home also has to accept u..only then the deal goes on without problems..
Baaa, baaaaa
Article one:
Experimental Philosophy, hmmmm
Leading the main-stream away from self-awarness to the realm of universal consciousness?
Be careful loitering in pubs putting out those sensations of being stared at...
Susan-Marie: Some would observe no doubt but others (bloggers I'm sure) would participate fully! *smiles*
Susan Marie: Maybe Rodin's "The Thinker" should have a pint of Ale in his hand!
Should I start a new pay website
www.LeMarcsLollingInPubs.com
*cheers*
I have a friend named Roscoe in Provincetown who calls me. He says if you build it, they will come.
Roshni: Hi Rosh, wonderful to have you joining us.
Fascinating to read your comments re Vastu.
I have always wondered if you by a book on Feng Shui does it matter where you put it in your house?
*giggles*
Thank you for your wonderful cultural interpretation of article #1
Robin: You can't pull the wool over my eyes!!
*groan*
article #1, yes, I am glad you see it in the same way that I did.
*smiles at sensation of being stared at*
Hey i cant believe what you said about cows Professor! Nietzsche said he got lost in there sweet expressions and that if you asked themthere thoughts they could only say we dont remeber, we forgot while uyou asked the sentence!!!!!!
Woodsprite: "Some would observe no doubt but others (bloggers I'm sure) would participate fully! *smiles*"
Is this you offering to buy a round?
*looks hopefull*
Our Feng Shui book is in that very special collection reserved for short-term reading on the go... In one 'sitting' you might say. haha
ARTICLE 3 # about grief...it's one of the most common events that we'll have to cope with, and yet it's very poorly understood."
i think its so important to understand grief... different people cope with it differently...complicated and uncomplicated grief...never thought of it that way...
Susan Marie: "I have a friend named Roscoe in Provincetown who calls me. He says if you build it, they will come."
That's from Field Of Dreams isn't it?? Maybe Hurlyburly can confirm that for me.
*waves at Roscoe*
Andrew: "Hey I can't believe what you said about cows Professor! Nietzsche said he got lost in their sweet expressions and that if you asked them their thoughts they could only say we dont remember, we forgot while you asked the sentence!!!!!!"
*smiles*
That's how most people think when I start talking to them but for a range of reasons!!
*chuckle*
Thank You Andrew
No, they stole that quote from the great American Horatio Algiers!!!!!!
Robin: "Our Feng Shui book is in that very special collection reserved for short-term reading on the go... In one 'sitting' you might say. haha "
*giggles*
There is a gag in there about it easing the passage but I'll leave that one well alone.
Roshni: article #3, yes completely. I am very happy that something I posted has made you think of something in a new way.
That is all the reward I ever seek.
Thank You Rosh
Karl: "ps, I am the BEST person to sit people-watching with!!!
(over a few ales obviously)
*smile*"
Of course!
"That's from Field Of Dreams isn't it?? Maybe Hurlyburly can confirm that for me."
It certainly is. (A favourite film of mine - sentimental and sure to make me cry!)
My i-tunes is on shuffle and suddenly Tony's voice has come spookily through my speakers thanks to your LBC download!
Susan Marie: Kevin Costner in Algiers Plagiarism!!!
Who would have thought it, Horatio!
*smile*
Woodsprite: *smiles at image of being spooked through the Ether by Tony's voice*
That first comment related to this comment by Karl.. "Is this you offering to buy a round?"
Does that make better sense?
no. 3, grief.
People I know who would fall into the catagory of complicated grief seem to feel guilty about moving on. Perhaps the nucleus accumbens responds when someone unwittingly avoids the 'pleasure' of feeling ok again.
Woodsprite: Excellent, Pint of Ale please Di.
I haven't read four yet but the title alone caused my eyebrows to raise... lol
Tactile virtual reality??? whoa!
Robin: article #3, what a wonderful comment! Yes, I can see that psychology for sure. Applying to Daemon-Eidolon Dyad, if the Daemon "knows" that Death is illusory in subjective consciousness (until the Ultimate Life but we can leave that debate aside for now) then by steering the Eidolon away from the pleasure of feeling 'ok' and through grief it may actually be protecting the Eidolon.
What a great interpretation Robin!
Robin: article #4, I am sure that you especially will see the importance of this article when applied to the "Second Life" article from Week 1, and the "Silent Mind" and "Computer Human Sight" articles from last week, you can start to get a true idea of what existence within a Bohmian IMAX, multi sensory, multi dimensional, hollographic world is like.
The importance of being frightened....we indians are supposed to be very emotional as compared to people of other countries...and we have this thing going about Englishmen....Englishmen are supposed to keep a very stiff upper lip.. and avoid showing emotion..is it true?
Roshni: I think it is still an 'English' thing to maintain a 'stiff upper lip' yes, but I have never been one to follow a trend and certainly not a traditional male stereotype so I do express my emotions both verbally and through my body language very openly.
Robin & Krl: I'm ponderins this one...
I suppose it all depends on the function of pain. Grief is an emotionally painful experience which is a form of depression. Depression has the effect of slowing everything down.. the debiltating effect stops physical activity, the appetite for everything is lost, sleep is disrupted, hopelessness sets in. Because it is a state that most people experience it is likely to have some purpose for survival. If the Daemon is involved in preventing the eidolon from leaving this state of grief, what could this purpose be? Maybe to encourage the eidolon to reflect? Or to prevent a risky activity of some sort?
Any thoughts?
I believe there is a purposive element to Daemonic prolonging of the grief state. It allows for immersion in the unconscious aspects of grief, and a later recovery has more strength and depth than an earlier one. It presupposes all which Reik speaks on, of pain as a strengthener, Nietzsche as well. KLLM, do you believe in the basic theory of Kramer, or did you reject his thesis on mental illness? I would think you did, wholly; I certainly do.
Roshni: My impression of Indian people was that they seemed much more open in expressing emotion than British people. For example, people were openly curious by my auburn hair and my travelling companion's black skin. We were constantly being asked for our photographs - in a very friendly way. Also the personal space that people feel comfortable with is VERY much closer than for British people.
Woodsprite: Welcome to the 'Ponderosa'
*smile*
Speaking from personal experience of Depression I would agree. As to why the Daemon would protect the Eidolon through grief I would say it must, otherwise the doors of perception to the Eidolon would be blown too far open.
Reflection on life, either through memories of a loved one, or through your own subjective memories, is a vital cog in the wheel of personal existentialism.
And yes, you are also right that if the Daemon didn't protect the Eidolon then Eidolonic attitudes to Death could be reckless.
Excellent question.
language...
i think i should be able to safely say that its true...i speak 4 indian languages and one foriegn language ie english...and iknow there is a change in my personality, when i speak the rural language of my ancestors and when i speak english...
Susan Marie: Please read my comments I have just left to Woodsprite above and you will see that I agree with your last comment yes.
Could you expand on your question re Kramer's theory for everyone?
Roshni: Language, Interesting, yes.
Can I ask you a question, as a Multi-linguist?
What language to you THINK in Rosh????
yes woodsprite,...we indians are emotional..we openly show our emotions, we laugh and cry openly... you know in ancient india at funerals of famous people a professional RUDALI(a woman who beat her breast and cried) was hired....
sometimes people of other countries may find our openess rude because we do stare ..really stare...!
Briefly, as I am late to go somewhere: Kramer in his "Listening to Prozac" concludes that emotional and psychological suffering is coming from the animal level, and should be outmoded by human evolution. He believed Prozac to be an advance out of the animal to the suprahuman who would never need be depressed or grieve again. I see much hubris in him, and Prozac theory collapsed on his head shortly, beginning with New York Times jokes about "Listening to Jack Daniels, Listening to extra-strength Tylenol" etc. I read a biography on the Lord Byron , and his bipolar illness raised him almost to the level of a god, and surely fueled his creative genius. I know a philosopher who the same could be said about. I reject full Kramer's thesis.
karl,i think in my native language, the language that i first spoke and speak with my parents and family.all my emotions are expressed in my mind in my native language..and i swear in it too!
Roshni:
The 'Sensation' Of Being Stared At
*smile*
Susan Marie: Thank you. I am aware that you have to leave us and I completely agree with you re the thesis yes.
We can discuss this when you return and have more time as I feel it would be of interest to certain bloggers so please let's revist this theme later today.
*my thoughts are with you*
Roshni: *shocked*
Oh! Do not shatter my illusion of your pristine nature by alluding to you swearing!!
*smile*
I think it is an interesting question that I asked you as most people don't "know" what language they think in!!
Plus, given the Left-Right brain Psychology it is clear to me that shifting ones personality through language would also shift ones whole consciousness perspective and mindset.
Thank You Rosh.
no. 4
Advances in how we interact with our computers no longer surprise me. The thing to watch for now is how the computer conveys information to us! A multi-sensory interface on the reciever's end will be an amazing accomplishment and open new doors for the sensory impaired.
We're off to the movies... I'll finish this swim later in the day!
Susan-Marie: Creativity often seems to come with a penalty. There are loads of examples of highly talented people who have bipolar. Many people with this disorder would not wish to lose the creative phase although the depression is so awful. There is a very powerful series of documentaries by Stephen Fry on this subject tht I'm sure you would find interesting.
Having suffered from depression myself, I see it as a way of my Daemon forcing me to focus on my emotional life instead of trying to work etc. I dream vividly when I'm depressed and often have the way forward spelled out to me in dreams. This includes my moving to live on the Wirral ... which has ultimately led to attending Tony's talk and discovering his ideas.
Robin: re article #4, ABSOLUTELY, and linking it back to my last comment to you I hope you are on the same wavelength as I am!!
PLUS, here is a link to an article that didn't make it into my post this week but which you may find interesting:
Computer Scientist Turns His Face Into A Remote Control That Speeds And Slows Video Playback
Science is fun!!
Enjoy your Movie, come back to paddle some more with me later.
Woodsprite: Well I can certainly agree with that yes. My Bipolarity is very rare in that it manifests itself almost entirely cerebrally (meaning my highs are not physically motivated but mentally and I can read 7 to 10 books in one day, spend 4-5 days awake and hypergraphic/hyperlexic to extremes.
As Stephen Fry pointed out in his series on Manic Depression, he gave sufferers a hypothetical button to press which would remove ALL elements of Bipolarity from them and almost no-one would press it because they feel the condition is what MAKES them the person they are.
I know I certainly think so.
BBC Webpage for Stephen Fry's
"The Secret Life Of The Manic Depressive"
Many people I know have compared my mind to Stephen Fry's, which has always been a huge compliment in my eyes!
Ive always wondered, is creativity and intelligence relative?
Karl: It seems to me you have his abilty to store and recall loads of information, to make inspired links, to communicate really well and to be completely daft as well.
But don't let that go to your head!
(Anyway, he's posh!)
karl, answer to your first comment....YES, I WANT TO HEAR YOUR VOICE! please record it and put it on this blog!
Roshni: "Ive always wondered, is creativity and intelligence relative?"
Most things are relative Rosh.
And I shall see what I can do re the Audio.
Thank You
Woodsprite: Oh yes, I agree.
I have always said that my brain is both a blessing and a curse to me.
But thank you for your kind words, believe me they will not go to my head.
My frail ego runs away whenever I am compimented.
Everyone: I am just going to take a 30 minute break to have something to eat (and a cold ale obviously), so I'll address any further comments in half an hour and then for the rest of the evening if anyone wished to contribute.
Thank You for all you input as always, please keep your questions, thoughts and interpretations coming.
Karl
Karl: Your ego need not be frail.
*ahhh!*
The image of your frail ego scrurrying away reminds me of my skittish cat who only allows me to touch her when she's hungry! So I'll fight the urge to stroke your frail ego! *smile instead*
Hi Everyone
What a brilliant discussion, have just spent the last 20 mins wading through all the comments!
Article #3
I like the fact that this research has been done but not the fact that the answer they offer is DRUGS!!! End of rant.
Whilst reading this article I could not help but think of Karl's term neuro atypicality.
Under 'usual' circumstances whilst the grief process is experienced, the two processes in the brain relating to pain and to pleasure/reward are interlinked, I think.
Over time forward movement occurs. At this point a person is able to be sad about the loss and still emotionally connect to their grief but also, separately, look back with joy, love and happy memories of that person. So they become 2 distinct processes again.
So in complicated grief, I feel that the 2 processes do not, over time, become separated leading to this neuro atypical state of complicated grief.
I think it serves the purpose of protection, a sort of hibernation or static state to allow healing, likely daemonically induced as I believe it happens for a reason.
I also think that when the time is right for the eidolon the daemon will guide them forward. This may be an awareness that it is time or an awareness that help may be required to assist with the first steps, such as cognitive behavioural therapy.
Woodsprite: *blush*
Johar: Welcome back JoJo, I'm glad you've enjoyed reading through the chatter, it's been a good old week hasn't it?
article #3, Yes all too often the 'establishment' answer is DRUGS. The true answer does lie in the mind of the neuro-atypical I think and the balance between pain and pleasure is a fundamental one to existentialism.
And as you can read in my previous comments I do agree that there is an element of Eidolonic protection through grief guided by the Daemon.
Wonderful comment JoJo, Thank You.
Johar: You have sweet and lovely thoughts, I like your conclusions, and always take notice of your comments. You are very much on target with your ideas of daemonic guidance in my opinion.
Woodsprite: I appreciated your remarks extremely; I think it is clear that your move to Wirrals and the meeting of Tony is daemonic compensation, and a blessing.
LeMarcs: I think your being compared to Stephen Fry is a compliment indeed . I however see much of Searles and also Nietzsche in you. There is an actual syndrome of the bipolar genius, and I have read much on it. Besides the incredible IQ and its array of feats and capabilities, there is much creativity, strong femininity, true manliness and virtue, artistic eccentricity, and neoteny (little boy posturing and pranks)--Certainly Searles and Nietzsche both were beautiful as expressions of this profile; and the childlike prankishness distinguishes Barack Obama in all things: he has all the other traits except for intellectual genius (he is just a smart Harvard grad) but makes up for the lack with oratory skill. You more than anyone bear these features, and they are aristocratic and truly useful and helpful agents of social change. I think you and Tony are 2 wholly beautiful men, and without the charisma and power, you could neither of you inspire as you do. You know what Reik, Freud and Horney would make of that fleeing ego of yours, don't you??? But that matter must be kept silent.
Susan Marie: Hi there!!
I'm impressed that dear Stephen has made it to New Jersey, you would enjoy his UK show QI (it stands for Quite Interesting), there must be shows on YouTube or some other of those young person type websites!!
*enjoys being a Luddite*
Wow, your Nietzschean and Sealesian compliment is staggering, thank you.
Yes, Bipolarity is indeed a syndrome and thankfully these days far better understood (although still treated quite wrongly by the Psychiatric and Pharmaceutical world as Ed and I would be happy to rant against)
I shall go and retrieve my ego from the cupboard under the stairs where it has now retreated to.
*blush*
Having thought more about article#3 I see a likeness to addiction.
Over time an addiction becomes hard wired into the brain so even when one wants to stop the neuro processes urge them to get their 'fix', providing comfort and stress relief.
Complicated grief is similar, in that over time the 2 processes remain interlinked and even if a person is aware that they are in a static state their brain is encoded with the need to cling to their grief for comfort and relief of sorts.
I believe it is the awareness of the eidolon to be guided daemonically that can move one forward from this state and begin the healing and that this influence can recode the processes once it's protective function is served.
Johar: re article #3, yes addiction, like grief, is a cognitive inhibiting emotive state so a similarity would be quite likely.
I like your analogy.
Article #4
Massive applications across a wide range of industries.
How long before we can 'step into' our computer, experiencing it as 3d multi sensory surround sound world!
MMMMM, sounds like the Bohmian IMAX!
And I saw a synchronicity between the reference to Cartesian coordinates and Dennet's Cartesian theatre.
Johar: re article #4, yes I think it was in comments to both Woodsprite and Robin I made earlier that are much on a similar line to your thoughts here JoJo.
Perhaps we have already 'stepped into' the computer and my own "Where Is The Internet?" Analogy is actually real life?
*scratches head*
Incognito Ergo Sum!!
*overly clever smug smile*
Yes, I've read it: Bohmian I-MAX is in it. And I told Tony he was in the Cartesian soliloquy when I first contacted him in '07. You see how Peake cuts across both philosophy and science? To me, this is truly remarkable, as he is so understated and subtle and profound. I hope he sees these article posted by his ally and aid, in every sense, his greatest promoter and advancer. Have you read Kierkegaard's "Concluding Unscientific Postscript"? It is a grand piece of literary satire and brimming with genius, and it is written under one of his many pseudonyms, "Johannes Climacus". It sounds like KL LeMarcs, so much so, I had someone remark on this fact. I find all of this inspiring, and wonderful, as it is so needed now in all areas, and I am honored to see its powers at work here. I am looking forward to a weekly post about philosophy when "The Daemon" is published. I plan to do that on my own blog, and I see hundreds of applications already.
Article #5
It seems to me that using all of our awareness and not our initial perceptions of what is presented to us allows us to see if the riskier option is viable. It suggests to me that if we perceive ambiguous options we are more likely to play it safe as a sort of fear response to the unknown quantity when it should be our higher awareness and instincts that should be at play.
I also consider this article to be a good foundation for child rearing. Children presented with clear, enforcable boundaries that offer unambiguous choices that are clearly defined allows the child to use all of it's awareness to choose the risker option in a safe way. It eliminates the fear of the unknown.
Susan Marie: Yes indeed, the applications of such would be innumerable!
I have always been a Kierkegaard reader yes, and also operating under many pseudonyms I appreciate his reasons for doing so also.
Johar: re article #5, I included this as a follow on from the "Honeybee" article from Week 1 of these Sunday Science Services.
The temporal time delay between overall perception and what is actually presented to consciousness IS, in my opinion, what causes things like this.
Our fear of the unknown comes from our limited conscious empiricalism. Through Daemonic guidance and altered consciousness we can expand our perception to thus make better judgements.
However I'd like to add that within the animal world, I can see that going for the safer option can be seen as an instinctive safety mechanism for survival, so this too can apply to humans.
It's a fine balance between choosing the safe option to perceive safety or taking it because it is necesaary to our survival (or safety)
Again,it comes back to using all our higher awareness.
I've just finished # 1. This is most interesting as it involves philosophers using the methods and methodology in general of the cognitive and behavioral science. Pinker up at Harvard has done wonderful studies in these areas. That more theoretical work is needed is an understatement, and I say again, I saw much application that could be fine-tuned by 2 certain thinkers. I would love to continue graduate study in these theoretical areas, as my natural inclination is to ponder such things.
Johar: Speaking of animals, here is a link to something that didn't make my post but was still entertaining this week:
5 Amazing Feats Of Animal Intelligence
My intelligent Cat (the gay one, Charlie) does the same thing that the Elephant does!!!
*smile*
Susan Marie: re article #1, are you talking about Steven Pinker? If so then I wholeheartedly agree having just finished reading today (in between blog Professoring), his latest "The Stuff Of Thought"
I am so glad that you are finding some of these Science reports interesting Susan Marie, it is my reason for spending so much time on them. Thank You.
Sacred Science.
I can see that reductionism has done much to explain systems but not enough that it encompasses or comes close to explaining consciousness.
I am pleased that Kauffman has reversed the arrow because as long as we are more than the sum of our parts we will alwyas be 'emerging'.
Johar: re Sacred Science, I'm sure Susan Marie will have something to say on Kauffman and the direction of that particular arrow!!
I certainly am in full agreement and Johar states it very nicely as is her way. Kaufmann and the shift from reductionism into the sacred domain of consciousness in its fullness is the crux of what I had hope for with my 2 British Midwives essay: the acknowledgment that theory itself is flawed; that methodology has been biased and skewed, and that an emergence of a total new theorizing is what all should be hoping for , seeking, aiding , by all means. and philosophy unites consciousness studies and quantum science. What beautiful symmetry, and how timely for dear, sweet,beloved Tony.
I've just read the article: Stephen Hawkins Explosive new Theory
It fits in beautifully with Karl's CtCW!
If the universe started this way than it's more than conceivable to suggest that we were once a wave that collapsed into a particle of consciousness. And with Karl's continuing work on probability density function it makes the theories even more cohesive.
Go Karl!!
Johar: Hurray!!! And Thank You JoJo!!!
I was hoping someone would make the connection between the Stephen Hawking article and my CtCw
FANTASTIC!!!
*applauds wildly*
Oh, I had an early night with only a few thoughts in my head re all these wonderfully presented diverse ideas and a few comments...now there is a ship-load!!(yes I said ship!!) and here was I the only person on the earth apparently who had never heard the word anthromorph and I am one!!! And as always, the animal things get me in, Jo, even though you said WE have the superior consciousness, I have never really believed that, it depends what yardstick you use.. all so called *lesser* forms of life invariably follow an instinctive pattern of care for each other, nurturing their young and basic rules that they adhere to, more than the human race seems to do...
Susan Marie I hoped you would comment on the grief subject.. as we have told all, the grief-sites abound with people who have been told to stop wallowing, snap out of it etc. and your analogy re being able to lie in a soothing ethereal bath of memories, thoughts etc. as burns victims would, resulting in a deeper healing overall, impressed and helped me immensely.
And at last, Karl I meant to comment on the ghostly girl... I found , much as you do, she goes cross eyed towards the end!! And I distrust the angry man one, it is *morphed* oh so slowly is it not?? Most of us have those Optical Illusions books and realise just how much we *see* what we are used to or expect to see..sorry for waffling.. and thank you again!! I have Monday to read all again..
No wonder your washing line flutters with oversized Gingham Handkerchiefs!! They are indeed priveleged to soothe your searingly brilliant thoughts!!
Jesamyn.
Jesamyn: Hi Jez, well I must say we have had a cross global discussion today. Bloggers from Australia, New Jersey, India, Oklahoma and Coventry to name but a few!
*smile*
Animal consciousness is certainly a form of consciousness yes, although it is also probably a different type of consciousness to human consciousness.
Like in-forms like!!
I agree Jez, that it would be interesting to hear Susan Marie comment on article #3 so I hope she will do.
I'm not surprised, knowing you, that you would have similar observations as I do regarding the Ghostly Girl, the optical observations are obviously predicated on subjective conscious mindsets and by changing them you can alter observation.
Here enters Daemonic theory!!
*blushes at Jez's touching compliment*
I did give a thorough explanation with regard to daemonic prolongation of grief and its purposive function. That was my comment on #3. That is all I have to say on grief.
Susan Marie: Thank You. I thought I was sure you had commented on article #3, I hope Jesamyn can locate your excellent remarks in the sections above.
Everyone: A huge thank you to all who contributed to another fantastic discussion.
You all make these Sunday's special and I thank you all for every comment you place, which all combine to assist others.
This shows what this blog can do when we pull together.
Thank You again.
If anyone has any further comments, questions or interpretations please add them as the occur to you.
My husband and I have just returned from our outing. On the advise of our teenagers we saw the movie "Wall-E". I thought it would be just another anthropomorphic Disney film. Oh my, was I ever surprised! It was wonderful! It was emotionally moving and socially relevant. And in keeping with ITLADic tradition, very synchronized with Karl's no. 1 article today. I will echo the advise of our very wise teens who said "you guys need to go see this"!
Robin: As a teenager I remember 'advising' my parents to go see certain films also. Admittedly this was mostly driven by a desire to get them out of the way, but I'm sure you Son and Daughter would not do that to you Robin.
*ahem*
Thank you for this referral though Robin, I'm sure Hurlyburly will be particularly interested.
Synchrondipities abounding today!!
Shhhhhhh!
Don't give them any ideas Karl!
Robin: *giggle*
Thank you so much Karl Lemarcsfor all you do and for being excellent and kind as a scholar and professor.
Andrew: You are welcome Andrew. I am just very happy that you enjoy these Science News Top5s and the discussions that ensue.
I have a different colour mortarboard on today as I am tutoring in a completely different area of ideology.
Are we alloud to ask what it is>? what color is it.
Andrew: Well for most of the day it was VERY red!
Now it is off as I am struggling with a laptop that is reeeeeeeeallly slow!!
Am going to have to rebuild the whole thing I think, so at least it will give me something to do if I can't sleep (most likely)
NOTE: If anyone has emailed me, I WILL get back to you but I am having problems viewing email at the moment. I will get it sorted asap. THANK YOU
Karl: I wish you good luck. There is nothing so troublesome as a computer that is misbehaving!
Woodsprite: *shakes fist at technology*
I'm a luddite at heart, I think it far more romantic to be writing with a quill in an oversized leather ledger.
*turns up flame in Victorian oil lamp*
All is sorted now!! Good job I know a thing or two about pesky computers!
In reponse to article 3#
No longer mourn for me when I am dead
Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell:
Nay, if you read this line , remember not
The hand that writ it; for I love you so,
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot,
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O, if (I say) you look upon this verse,
When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse;
But let your love even with my live decay:
Lest the wise world should look into your moan,
And mock you with me after I am gone.
*adopts Shakesperian stance and dons overly elaborate ruff*
karl, your gigs and gags make me smile....
u can be so intelligent, and innocent, passionate, and peircing...at first i thought u were a pompous***!but now i know better....
Roshni: Mr. LeMarcs is just too, too much, isn't he?
Roshni: I can hear the laughter of all those who know me at the mere suggestion that I could ever be pompous!
I'm glad you understand me better (and more accurately) now, Rosh.
Susan Marie: I hope you meant that in a nice way!!!!
Well, what do YOU think?? Of COURSE in the nicest of all possible ways!!!!!!! Give me some credit.
Karl, SM has always told me that you are one of the kindest persons she has met...!( Only, i had my doubts)which are disappearing now!
Thanks, Roshni. See, LeMarcs???
Susan Marie is very often right, and she is again on this occasion.
Thank you SMK and Rosh.
I only have a short while before my next meeting but thank you.
"Develop interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself". - Henry Miller
( im trying!)
Yes, that is beautiful, Rosh! It throbs with rich treasures; how well I know that now!
Roshni: NO, NO, NO!!!
I agree with most of the Miller quote BUT Never Forget Yourself.
Yourself is all you can be truly aware of, and that should be embraced and cultivated, sculptured and developed throughout all lives.
karl, yes! i know and understand what you are saying...i love myself too much to forget myself..but i think here it means to forget ones ego, ones self pity, ones self importance...
Roshni: My advice to you then would be when you quote from someone else, just add your own comments as well, giving your interpretation of the quote.
Karl,I dont want to agrue!
Roshni: Me neither, Rosh.
Just offering my advice.
*smile*
karl, thnx for advice...is stored in my brain...will use it when i feel like it!
Roshni: You're very welcome!
*bows respectfully*
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