Tuesday 12 February 2008

The Mother Paradox of Cheating The Ferryman

Everyone, at some point within the timeline of their own phaneron, has had a Mother.

Imagine a Mother and Daughter attending one of Tony's now legendary lectures. Let's assume initially that we are the Mother: we understand the Cheating The Ferryman theory means that we never die in our own universe but eternally repeat our lives via Panoramic Life Review; this "life" includes the birth of the Daughter.

Now let's imagine we are the Daughter at the lecture: we too understand our life to be a review, but one in which our Mother already lives. To the Mother, the Daughter is a natural part of her own time-line - but to the Daughter, her Mother has pre-existence.

Now, assuming Hugh Everett III's Many Worlds Interpretation of Quanutm Physics, let's look at the Daughter's existence again. Fundamentally she obviously exists in her own universe time-line BUT, paradoxically, she also pre-exists herself in her Mother's phaneron. Indeed, age permitting, also in the time-line of her Grandmother, thereby suggesting our own objective existence prior to our actual subjective births within our personal universe.

So, not only, as the Many Worlds Interpretation suggests, do we co-exist in an infinite number of Parallel Universes but we have also existed and continue to exists within the Panoramic Life Reviews of our Mothers, and they in turn in their Mothers, and they in turn in their Mothers.............(ad infinitum - backwards).

My "Mother Paradox", I suggest, can be used to debate the usual criticism of Tony's theory that it philosophically leads to a deeply solipsistic nature of existence. Here I argue that CTF takes us away from a one dimensional solipsism to (almost) infinitely dimensional (material or immaterial) Parallel Universes.

Blimey eh! If it's not one thing.........It's your Mother!

Tell your children not to walk my way
Tell your children not to hear my words
What they mean
What they say

Can you keep them in the dark for life
Can you hide them from the waiting world
Oh Mother

Danzig - Mother

A Dark Philosopher
Karl L Le Marcs


Hurlyburly said...

Thanks Karl, that's exactly the type of thing i have been thinking about regarding Tony's theory. The problem of an initial factor which can be so deterministic upon the rest of a lifetime, or indeed several.

The sheer volume of multiple worlds get silly aswell if you want to include every single sperm, or at least a few million of the fast ones at least?!

Karl Le Marcs said...

I agree, fundamentally. Tony's theory (from my own understanding) suggests our "Virgin Life" to be a blue-print for future eternal returns thereby allowing our Daemon to guide/advise/coach our way through life's paths towards a better existence.
My "Mother Paradox" is, as I suggested in the post, a means by which Tony and those of us who relate his theory to others to counteract the usual criticism that CTF theory naturally leads one to think that only the self exists, and that one "I" is real. This is inherent Solipcism, and here, with my "Mother Paradox" we can postulate the alternative thesis that CTF actually is in harmony with Everett's Many World Interpretation.
*Sighs, and becomes aware of the lack of any gags recently*

Hurlyburly said...

It's only when staring at an ant through a magnifying glass on a hot sunny day that you realise just how often they spontaneously burst into flames....

All i got off the top of my head sir?

Karl Le Marcs said...

That's Harry Hill isn't it?
What are the chances of that happening eh?
Now let's attempt (at least) to keep things on a marginally cerebral level considering the nature of my original post.
*folds arms in the now legendary "Rigsby" fashion*

Hurlyburly said...

I have an atom in my pocket. It says you're a stoopid head....

*runs off to throw down at new dartboard with Oscar Wilde bullseye*

Karl Le Marcs said...

To lose one atom Mr HurlyBurly may be considered a misfortune. To lose both looks like carelessness.
*wit overload*
Now can we per-lease have some nominally intelligent input here.
*minor strop*

RED said...

WOW! I have to leave here and go think a while :) yall have given me lots to work with...

Anthony Peake said...

Red - Welcome to the Group. If you are looking for a site that will make your brain hurt this, most certainly is the one.

Karl - An interesting idea. As you say it may be the solution for the strongly solipsist elements of CTF. I need to think a little moe on the 'Mother Paradox' and get back to you.

Anthony Peake said...

Some of you may have read my short story "The Real Prize". In this I take the theme of a mother and daughter and weave into it elements of CTF. Ironic that Karl has chosen such a relationship forb his new angle.

Anthony Peake said...

Some of you may have read my short story "The Real Prize". In this I take the theme of a mother and daughter and weave into it elements of CTF. Ironic that Karl has chosen such a relationship forb his new angle.

Karl Le Marcs said...

Welcome to the community, nice to see some new people. Glad we've provided some food for your thoughts. Hope you come back soon to share yours with us.

Karl Le Marcs said...

Thanks for your comment. I must admit I have not read the short story you mentioned *subtle suggestion that Tony emails it me*.
My "Mother Paradox" just evolved in my head whilst sitting alone(as usual *sob)) in some random pub in Liverpool - thoughts naturally turning to Motherhood *shrugs*.
Hope to read some deeply Peakeian insights into my paradox once you've got your head around it.

Anthony Peake said...


I have now had some time to get my head around exactly what you mean by the 'Mother Paradox' and I now think I have grasped it. In order for my phaneron to be complete I have to have a mother - as does everybody - and I also exist as an element of my mother's phaneron.

However in my 'Virgin Life' and my mother's 'Virgin Life' we both existed in the same universe, a universe where we both laid down the recordings that are replayed in the Bohmian IMAX. I agree that in subsequent Bohmian IMAX re-runs a paradox exists but not in the Virgin Life of both of us.

However your comment is very interesting in that within each BIMAX (new term folks!) exists overlaping consciousnesses of my mother and myself. I feel that this may be explained by adapting elements of Bohm's 'Implicate Order' in that everything is contained within everything else.

Indeed I really like the idea of the 'enfoldment'(another Bohmian term) backwards in time as each mother turns into their own mother etc etc.

As you rightly say this helps us escape from the accusation of solipsism by applying Everett to CTF in a novel and original (is that not a tautology?) way.

I am sure that you could write a very Jorge Borges like short story based upon this theme.

Thanks Karl.

ken said...

Perhaps HB's pocket atom is calling me stupid now but I don't clearly see the paradox.

Are you saying that since I exist in my mother's Panoramic Life Review and since that Review starts before my birth that I exist before I was born?

Karl Le Marcs said...

Excellently constructed comments on my Mother Paradox, and I now feel you have fully grasped my concept - whereas the rather glassy expression on your face in the pub when I first mentioned it suggested otherwise.
From my "Mother Paradox" the next thought journey can be made to me "Quantum Entanglement of Consciousness" which I touch upon here:


Karl Le Marcs said...



(sort of)


[try re-reading my original post and then Tony's thought process in his comment - the two compliment each other to present the thesis]

The Blokemeister said...

i know it's an old thread but as I am new to this I was worrying about the mother paradox myself. However, all the solutions i read just seem too complicated to me, I mean, surely the universe can come up with a simpler way of doing things? It occurs to me that as everybody that has ever existed still does and that they are all replaying the same life over and over the only 'easy' option is that new life can only be brought into existence by 'virgin lifers'. It does seem to do away with the complex paradoxes and also explains quite why there are so many people populating the past and why the number grows with each generation. After all, a repeat performer would be incapable of bringing new life into existence as that person is already on a replay. I apologise if this is old ground but i have only just begun my owm personal voyage of discovery on this and I need to get some things straightened out!

Anthony Peake said...

Hi Mr. Bloke (I was near Thurrock a few weeks ago by the way!)may I suggest that you spend a little time going through all the posts on here. These should answer your questions. I then suggest you take a look at my FORUM at:


I also suggest that maybe you take the time to read my books. If you do not wish to buy them You can do this for free on-line at
www.wowio.com or check them out at your local library.

Best Wishes ... and welcome