Well it's been over 4 years since i was studying one of the great founding fathers of Sociology, this of course being the wonderful Emile Durkheim who gave such a marvelous contribution to all of Sociological theory but in particular to the study of Suicide.
For all of you who perhaps aren't aware of his work, maybe this would be a good time for some Wikipedia!
So taking all of these things into account, what are the implications of this for Tony's theory? (excuse the fact that some of these questions are the same dressed differently! It's simply me trying to encourage lots of questioning in this area!)
Is Suicide a discourse for certain individuals or is it a Sin?(I don't necessarily mean in a religious context)
What would the Daemon's influence be in such an outcome? - Is it possible this decision could be encouraged? Surely there are recorded stories of voices persuading the individual to choose both paths, but not necessarily from the Daemon.
Would there still be a life review played back in real time?
Would an outcome of suicide indicate a weak Daemonic influence or merely a necessary chain of events?
If we are all making subtle changes each time striving for the perfect life/frequency is it likely that a particular individual committing suicide could ever be the desired ending (for them in their reality)?
Is Suicide an indication that an individual simply has a lot of growing and evolving to experience in order to achieve a healthier life path?
That should get the ball rolling!? You get the point right? Suicide, how does this change things at all?
38 comments:
”A brave man once requested me,
To answer questions that are key.
Is it to be or not to be?
And I replied, “Oh why ask me?”
“'Cause suicide is painless,
It brings on many changes,
And I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please.”
Ah! What better way to cheer ourselves up on a Tuesday than to contemplate such a topic as this eh, Martin?
Thanks (!)
If we accept that we have free-will, either within ‘reality’ or within a Bohmian IMAX recurrence, then such a decision as suicide is ultimately the Eidolons.
Indeed, IF the point of Suicide is reached in ones life then one could argue that either a) the Daemon had not been effective in guiding the Eidolon away from past life review or b) the Daemon had already ceased to be in communication with the Eidolon owing to a prior event of guidance which began a Virgin Recording and thus from that point onwards neither the Daemon nor Eidolon was living with one eye on the future.
One cannot discuss “sin” without considering Theology, so I shan’t even try.
Suicide changes nothing, in ITLADian terms, as it is merely re-booting the computer.
Hope that answers your jolly ponderances!!
*reaches for Morrissey CD*
Hurly; I was told by a prominent psychologist once, "and Durkheim is the father of it all" and so his theory extends beyond sociology and forays into psychology (obviously, by your words above). In my dark moments I have pondered just this question Re suicide, in terms of "how much the daemon will allow". I think KLLM may have stated the answer in terms of ineffectual guidance from the d. Also: the act of suicide may reveal a rogue eidolon who has cast off the otherwise effective guidance from the daemon. But as I have no religious or other ideas of sin on this point, I assume fully that the daemon could incorporate this act of freedom (as per Schopenhauer) and in a return avoid the antecedents of it and alter the trajectory, etc. etc., etc. . .
I realise it doesn't change the science of things, Tony's theory however, is largely appealing based on it's social and romantic implications. Suicide is definately something that could add a different perspective to things, depending on how you looked at it.
Hurly: Yes, and I wanted to add 2 thoughts which have just now pushed themselves unbidden into my mind. First, a specific case of suicide has come to me, in which it is revealed that in CERTAIN cases the daemon itself has chosen this path as an expression of something which for a time needed to be seen, absorbed, understood. Hurly, I know he is before your time, but have you ever listened to the music of John Foxx of Ultravox? He has a song which is very daemonic about "dreams of leaving" and "drawing back into the clouds again" and I do believe he is voicing a plea as to a "higher suicide". But this of course in merely a thought exersize; important though it is for the general ITLAD discourse. . .
Thank you HurlyB! I've been trying to formulate a similar post since yesterday but haven't been able to put my thoughts into text! This post should cover all my questions nicely!
I wonder if the daemon ever finds it necessary to lead us to the dark side as a part of the eidolon's evolution. OR, if the daemon is the angel sitting on one shoulder perhaps there is a diametric consciousness sitting on the other... Could the dyad actually be a triad?
Eidolon's evolution - i like it!
In the interest of balance and symmetry it makes perfect sense. Perhaps some are lost to the darkside earlier on which is why it takes good slightly longer to prevail.
*What the hell am i talking about? I don't even like Star Wars*
Hurly: You ignored my question re John Foxx!!!
Sorry! No, i'm not too familiar with him. Just checked it out now and know a couple of songs but not really though. I'll try to check it out though at your marvleous suggestion!
Thank you, HB: He will be very much to your liking, especially "Wide Boys" from Ultravox and "Dangerous Rhythm" "Wild, Beautiful, Damned" from his own album. He was far ahead of his time, even now he sounds of the future. And I am glad to know you were not vexed by way of my recommendations. . . and there is much Daemonic, eidolonic in it all. . .
I think I liked Star Wars in a previous life...haha, not so much a fan now. I'd love to hear SM's music, I'm off on a quest to find it.
We can never understand or know whether suicide is necessary or not, but I would think in the vast majority of incidents it is totally unecessary.
If sin is defined as causing pain to others, there is no greater pain that you could inflict on the mother, and those with whom you are entangled.
If it was not a virgin life and the Daemon exists, the Eidelon failed to listen to the Daemon.
If we are all making subtle changes each time striving for the perfect life/frequency is it likely that a particular individual committing suicide could ever be the desired ending (for them in their reality)?
It is hard to see suicide as the desired ending, but the attractive part of Anthony's theory is that there really is no ending.
Is Suicide an indication that an individual simply has a lot of growing and evolving to experience in order to achieve a healthier life path?
Suicide may also be an indication that the society in which the individual lives needs to a lot of growing and evolving.
I don't know what you mean when you say the appeal of Tony's is based on it social and romantic implications. In my case the appeal of his theory is it explains my experience of somehow knowing EXACTLY and specifically what was going to happen in the future (14 years beforehand) by painting it exactly and specifically, and also experiencing the voice which seemed to be somewhat foreign. I suppose there is some hope that if I repeat this life I will have evolved to change the outcome. There is nothing romantic in this for me.
Uh oh: Afraid Robin is about to find the darkness at the core of SM: Hurly, though, Foxx is a man very much after your own heart; the energy and grace of Eminem's "Ima Kill You" abounds, and we know very well that all such "darkness" is transcendent, and sublimely and vigorously ENCOURAGING, right, HB?
RA: Of course there can be nothing romantic in all of this for you: but I am very happy to know that Tony's theory implies for you, as for me, that there is no ending and much, much hope for evolution. HB at 27 is immersed in that frame of mind which of necessity will lean toward the romantic implications; I long to recapture such in myself, but I know too well that you and I have been sobered to an unnecessary degree. That is the tragedy, but we do harbor hope, and that is what I cling to. . .
RE- Romantic implications of Tony's book:
Tony himself, thousands of times has refferenced Groundhog day as the main guideline and analogy for his theory. The concept of repeating life over and over in order to make changes, which, let's face it, even if you're devoid of any ethical or moral motivation, have to be pushing towards something?
I sense the direction of this thread taking a unecessary bad turn.
Maybe this will help?
Think of this thread as an extention to a similar one posted a while back by myself about "types of death." My interest lies more with certain factors that could affect our lives, choices, Daemon influence, life review and general direction with the framework of Anthony's theory. I realise this is a very depressing subject but if you delve into what i'm actually prodding at you will realise that, it's not actually about that! I am in no way making moral judgements about suicide, it's more about how it could effect Tony's theory.
I comprehend fully HB. And I look to it all as grist for the mill: mustn't ever sweep things under the rug, no sir!
Robin: To try and put an answer to your question I would say the only situation I can envisage where the Daemon would ‘direct’ the Eidolon towards suicide would be if the LIFE of the Eidolon has had SIGNIFICANT importance in past life review, but within this recurrence it has taken an alternate path (either wrongly or as a result of chance) and the Daemon simply wishes to "re-boot" the system and end the current game. Thus in the next recurrence the Daemon can redirect the Eidolon to the path of significance and ultimately keep bettering the Eidolon through all of its recurrences.
Ultimately the universal direction must be towards betterment, an overall evolution of consciousness.
HurlyBurly: Thanks for placing your last comment, I was growing increasingly concerned for the direction of the discussion given the vulnerability of some bloggers who have experienced thoughts or indeed actions suicidal (which was my entire reason for starting the "JOY" post, as I envisaged this may happen and hoped to show some salvation)
Thanks HB for this post. You have provided me with a therapeutic moment.
SM: You are, as usual, very gracious. Yes, sobered to an unnecessary degree. One's focus is sharper, and everything is in greater relief. The consolation is that there is this great beauty that one can sense even if it is at the same time very painful.
HB: Interesting post. I think that we may have discussed Durkheim when we met in London in February. I to was profoundly effected by Durkheim. Ironically (synchronistically) my first ever university essay was one Durkheim's "Sucide". Indeed I still have a tape that I recorded of Professor John Rex giving a lecture on this vey subject. However of all Durkheim's books I think the one that influenced me the most was "The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life". This focused me to do a course on the "Sociology of Religion" in my third year. This and Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic & The Spirit of Capitalism" are twin towers of applied sociology.
Thanks for bringing this topic up.
Hi Tony.
Yes, there has been a lot of refferencing to sociologists lately. I was discussing Jean Baudrillard (Jean not Jen) with Karl the other day, Derrida with my friend Jen yesterday morning, and quite a few more recently.
Did you ever read up on the English sociologist Anthony Giddens and his work on Structuration? Very interesting and maybe quite a bit of relevence to your work.
Anthony Giddens. Now that is a name I have not heard of in years! I will be off to my loft in few minutes to dig out some of those dustu old books!!!
HB: Thanks for explaining the romantic bit. I see what you mean. I hope my contribution isn't the bad turn. I appreciate your post, and I officially resign as the blog's number one crepe hanger. My daemon is saying to me "enough already"
NO, 3x NO, Ruth! You are never the bad turn, and all your postings and remarks are wonderful. I feel akin to you, in all you express, and I do feel lighter for having you as a sort of mirror! Do not stop holding the mirror up to me, Ruth!
No far from it!!! I just re-read my post a few times and ambiguity is a tricky thing. Depending on where you are in life and your perspective i whole-heartedly appreciate that this could poke where it simply shouldn't. I hope i have made my intentions a bit clearler anyway!
I would have to guess suicide is driven by our daemon:
First, the survival instinct is top tier when it comes to instincts. To overcome it would require a hefty does of subconscious influence.
Next, most animals are capable of committing suicide; a wild beast may starve itself when held in captivity. One has to assume this is not a conscious action on the animal’s part but rather something driven by an unknown force... such as the Daemon.
Maybe suicide is the Daemons way of testing us. If our reaction to stress and sorrow is to bail out then we probably need another turn in the barrel.
HURLY: I think this post was important. I do not think we should limit our discourse in any sense so long as the posting is well thought out, well executed, meeting some level of sophistication in its references, conducive to discussion, and facilitates debate. (Of course the overarching theme must relate to ITLAD/CTF.) I can't see where you have failed on these points. In fact, you would appear to be forming an expository argument. You draw from Durkheim, and I think the Socratic method could be used to further (i.e., start with a basic premise; find common examples; begin to question the nature of such; find your own opposition within; enter the dialectical process, etc. - until the Platonic "form" of the idea emerges: I am sure you remember from your studies ). I think there are important deontological issues as well. It looks to me as if you are questioning the eidolon/daemon in terms of roles: not so much the logistics of reruns, returns, reviews, but of meaning, valuation, purpose. You are actually posing something altogether different, am I correct in this assumption? I sense an unposed question. In any case this is how it appears to me as a philosopher. Do you agree with my perspective, or have I failed to "catch" your own true intentions?
Martin: Just something in the way of an addendum to my remarks above: The reason I mention the Socratic method is that I have a strong sense that this is what you were driving at, what you wanted to spark off. Socrates uses the maiutic method of inquiry: in other words, it is midwifery, a "birthing" process which comes not from a heap of disjointed arguments and piling on of facts, but from a blended harmony and excellent ordering through open discourse. It is a high form of argument, the best there is, and has all forms of ethical/transcendent potential. Please let me know if I am correct in my assumption that this is what you were in fact seeking when you began this post.
Re - eidolon/daemon in terms of roles.
I suppose, yes i am questioning these things. I think you give me a little bit too much credit, but i do like to try and play devils advocate in order to provoke real thought about things.
i.e., start with a basic premise; find common examples; begin to question the nature of such; find your own opposition within; enter the dialectical process, etc. - until the Platonic "form" of the idea emerges
That sounds about right yes! I think in order to find meaning in certain action we first need to decide why there would necessarily be any meaning in the first place, if there is good reason, what is it? How can this be merged with Tony's theory of repeating life (hopefuly for the better)
Well, not for me to question your original intentions, really. Nor to impose my own methods. Just thought I might apply my own insights and see if they resonated. And of course questioning is always a good thing if it is kept within certain bounds. . .
That's fine Susan! Please don't be so guarded around me, i welcome your comments and am flattered that you see such a thorough thought process in my work!
Oh, OK, then! I just am wary of meddling, so try always to counter-balance any aggression on my part by beating a hasty retreat. But you obviously are not like certain philosophers and academics whom I have grappled with in the past (and who probably trained me in this dance of step forward, step back, make a run for it)--and I do thank you, Hurly, for being gracious!
By the way guys, all of the suicide in "Groundhog day" may not be an accurate reflection of what would necessarily happen"
Remember... "Don't drive on the railroad track!!"
It's interesting though that Suicide is clearly not an acceptable path choice for Murray in this film and merely reflects his lack of effort to improve his day thus far. Taking more positive steps toward kindess leads him to the desired outcome*
*I'm just so, so sorry it's Andie Mcdowall.*
Bless me Father (Tony) for I have sinned... I have not read your wonderful Itlad booke in its entirety (or I have been whatever_infused)
But Hurly I wanna answer here too....As with those of us here who have lost Loved Ones... I have thought of this path... but the awful ways we have to choose, Restrict!!! Who wants to hang (choke to death) Drown (same) cut wrists(bleed to death and leave charming sight for finder) take drugs as per some pop stars etc meaning choking etc...Leap off a cliff maybe to live crippled evermore... surely we are not meant to Go this way, as it is all so horrific... and then I fear .. to wander in some*grey zone* probably seriously alienated from the One we were trying to find anyway!!!Religion or not... noooo tis not the Waye!!!
Regards to All and to anyone contemplating this... NO!!! Come here and we will help!!! Love
Jesamyn xxxx
*offers Jesamyn absolution*
I need the same. I, I, I am the one who planted the idea of the gloria patri and the icipit vitae nova--ooooh
Dominus noster Anthonious Peakeus te absolvat; et ego auctoritate ipsius te absolvo ab omni vinculo excommunicationis et interdicti in quantum possum et tu indiges.
Or Something!
REDEMESTI ME! DOMINE DEUS VERITATIS!! (who trained you in classical latin? i still can't get my declensions right after 2 years independent study with the best from Harvard)
I have the BEST teacher in the world.
I'm an autodidact!!
*Smile*
To Bed!!!!!!!!!!
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